[Rematog]

Hmm….

So, the HVDC systems us AC transformers to change the voltage at each end, rectify/invert to/from DC at that voltage, etc.

SO, if you want a DC tranmission/distribution/household use system, at each step you invert to AC, use a conventional transformer to change the voltage up or down, then rectify back to DC…

Why would this be better???

[Rematog]

I’d invest in air conditioning, lighting, pump manufactures, water treatment equipment companies (esp. reverse osmosis), battery companies (for all those electric cars), electrical equipment manufactures (transformers, transmission, solid state power controls, etc).

Things that people will want more of if the the cost of electric power is lower AND availability is nearly unlimited (in the long run). Electric power would no longer be a limiting resoure…it would be a manufactured good! What will be the market growth in Africa for air conditioning when there is cheap power available………

[Rematog]

High voltage also reducses the amount of conductor needed. Heavy industrial motors are often 4160 volts (our plant uses the less common 6,900V). This reduces the current (and hence temperature rise in windings) in not only the motor, but the copper conductors from the switchgear room to the motors.

For transmission, over 100 KV (100,000 volts) is not that high of voltage. Up to the mid 200 KV’s is normal.

[Rematog]

Way over the head of a simple M.E.

[Rematog]

Aeronaut,

Small nit to pick. Megawatts are a unit of power, which is a rate (like velocity), for 13 MW-hr is a measure of energy (like distance) and 13 MW/hr is a rate of change (like acceleration). Steam power plants have load change limits, typically around 5 MW/min change in output.

Yes, cheap electric power would be a god-send to the primary metals industry. Electro refinining, such as for copper, and as a sorce of heat for casting plants, etc.

Also, waste could be reduce using a plama arc furnace, turning it into fully oxidized gases and glass slag. So, so many things become possible and/or cheap if the power is cheap….

FF would be the next best thing to “Friendly Aliens” providing us with high tech……remember “To Serve Man”….(Twilight Zone episode, google it.)

[Rematog]

Power-wise, FF is a good match to locomotives. Currently, around 6,000 Hp is a really big diesel electric. FF at 5 MW would be about this size. So, just need to be able to mount it on a locomotive frame and provide cooling, etc.

[Rematog]

I couldn’t comment on DC being better for ships and locomotives. (but a wood burning, triple expansion steam engine powered, paddle wheel river boat works for me). I am just making the board aware that 60 hz AC will be the flavor of power used in US in the forseeable future for local transmission and distribution. DC has some advantages for very high voltage long distance transmission. But if FF becomes a reality, long range transmission would be un-necessary very quickly.

Even I concede that there would be no reason to site plants outside the region the power is needed in. They just need to be outside of town and out of sight of the NIMBY’s.

[Rematog]

The solid state transformers I found on a quick search of the internet are very small (1 amp output or less). Also, all that I found mention of are step DOWN transformers. Unless you generate the power at 100,000 volts (which I really doubt), there will be a need for large step UP transformers.

Solid state technology is, currently (pun), normally limited to relatively low currents. The supplier I checked with stated that there are no solid state transformers available on the commerical market today.

The most common application of solid state power technology today is the variable frequency drive (VFD), which would be generally similar to a transfomer application. For example, a 100 hp motor VFD is expensive (A “VFD” is a “smart” solid state drive the rectifies the AC to DC, then creates AC at a new, controllable frequency (it can also adjust voltage to a certain extent), in order to control motor speed, which can reduce in-rush (start-up) current surge, conserve power at lower motor torque/speed demands, and control the “process” being driven by the motor in question (speed control).

For a 100 HP drive a quoted list price is $13,000. I’d assume a solid state transformer to process the power from a 5 MW (6,670 Hp) Focus Fusion power generator would cost around the $500,000 your assuming the generator would cost.

Based on $13,000/2 /100 x 6670 = $434,000, (cost of 100 hp VFD / 2 for economy of scale / 100 to get per Hp x 6670 HP of 5 MW FF generator).

hmmm….

[Rematog]

In either case, All Al did is co-sponsor enabling legislation…. that’s a long way from create, invent, install, etc. He was just another pol claiming credit for what scientists and engieers were doing. He just got the law out of our way.

“God wanted to chastise mankind, so he sent lawyers”
Russian Proverb

[Rematog]

PD may well be right….in the long run. But the local community will need to have a line crew to run the power distribution lines and will need to contract expert maintenance services for the FF modules. Power will get much cheaper and the local power “utility” will be a source of patronage jobs, similar to the local road crew.

But, the power will get cheaper DESPITE the local control/ownership. The FF module will make it cheaper. The local control/patronage jobs will absorb part of the cost savings. There is an economy of scale in power distribution. Walmart is much cheaper then a mom & pop store. They take over because the large scale operation is much more cost effective then a small scale operation.

Remember, the mom & pop store only made money for mom & pop, and then often not a lot. If they had any employees, they generally paid low wages with no benefits…just like Walmart.

Big business has many, many, problems….but small local business often has a different set of problems. It isn’t a perfect world.

[Rematog]

Brian,

Your right, stacking is not critical, any would be based on design and operations considerations. In major urban areas, might be economical….. but you’d need to get the plant permitted first….you know my opinion about that.

Aeronaut,

Example, the switchyard on a 1.7Gw plant I’ve drawings for is a square about 700′ on a side. I’d imagine that there would be some economies of scale for large plants, but remember, high voltages require greater separation, hence more size.

As for transmission design, I’ve no experience with it. I’m an M.E., you need to ask that one of a double E.

Rematog

[Rematog]

Case in point about the persistence of standards…

Look at your keyboard. QWERTY. It was created in the second half of the 19th century to SLOW DOWN typing…. to the speed that the manual typewriters of the era could handle……hmmmm.

Going that one further. Why are the space shuttle solid fuel boosters the diameter they are….to be able to fit on a standard gauge rail road car….and, I quote wikipedia here, though I read this factoid before “Al Gore invented the Internet”.

Early origins of the standard gauge
Standard gauge appears to have been derived from the rutways created by chariots used by Imperial Rome, which everyone else had to follow to preserve their wagon wheels, and because Julius Caesar set this width under Roman law[citation needed] so that vehicles could traverse Roman villages and towns without getting caught in stone ruts of differing widths. Excavations at the buried cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum revealed ruts averaging 1,448 mm (4 ft 9 in) centre to centre.

AND, bye the way, the chariot wheels were that far apart so…..a horse would fit between them….so…. The space shuttle solid booster diameter was determined by the width of a horse’s ass.

I Love that one.

Rematog

[Rematog]

Several BIG reasons for AC power.

Transformers. They ONLY work for AC power. Very hard (therefore expensive) to raise or lower DC voltage. So if you have a, say 100,000 volt DC transmission line, how do you get it down to a usable household voltage.

Motors. AC motors have no brushes to wear out. AC is much more convenient for making things turn, like say a refrigerator’s compressor, or the air conditioner’s compressor.

Lighting. While conventional light bulbs will work fine on DC, fluorescent bulbs use ballasts to make the voltage they need to run. Guess you could use LED based lights, but those are not yet commercial.

And the Biggest reason… Trillions of dollars in both utility infrastructure and industrial, commercial and residential equipment designed for good old 60 hz.

Rematog

[Rematog]

They are just as greedy as every other corporation, from Mircosoft to GM to Mobile Oil.

But one difference. They are highly regulated. If generation costs fall, then the price the customer pays for power will drop. Big reason, in most states, the Commission that regulates the utilities, and sets the rates they can charge, is either ELECTED, or appointed by elected officials. Which is a good thing. If they had the monopoly power the do have, without regulatory oversight, they would, as the greedy corporations (almost as greedy as most people in fact) charge much more for power.

So, in some cases, regulation is a good thing.

And, If FF modules delivering 5MW roll out of factories for under 1 million each, the price of power will, in a very few years, fall though the floor. Then many of us will, literaly, air condition the back yard (just like I tell my kids when they leave the back door open, hee ,hee)

Rematog

[Rematog]

Bye the Bye,

“Engineering dogma” (codes such as ASME, ASTM, various Electrical Codes) and the fire codes (NFPA) were created to save lives. Look up early 20th century boiler explosions (an example being the Grover Shoe Factory disaster) and fires (such as the Triangle factory, or the more recent Hamlet chicken processing plant fire). Yes, we may be a bit conservative, but remember engineering is based much more on empirical knowledge then on theoretical science. And people are hurt or killed when we make a serious underestimation of the perversity of nature.

A Licenced Professional Engineer, such as myself, has a duty to protect the public, just as a medical doctor has his oath. So when you go to bed tonight, in a house with a water heater (look up water heater explosions), be thankful for engineering dogma and fire codes.

Rematog

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