[Aeronaut]

Brian H wrote:
8-/
Selling FF as a heat source as a fall-back in case it never works as a generator is, I suppose, possible. BUT if it works, I guarantee you that all that boiler hardware etc. you have envisaged above will cost FAR more than a second FF generator to produce enough electricity to generate that same amount of heat. Remember, a boiler is the most primitive level of industrial power generation after you get past water wheels turning grist mills. It is operating well down the thermodynamic/entropy scale, with a very lossy conversion ratio back to electricity.

I suppose you could integrate FF generators into such desalination plants and use both the electric power and the waste heat, as they have need of both.

Brian, we know its just a matter of time before FF creates net energy in a lab setting (sans ion beam and X-ray generators). Until FF delivers even its first real-world MW, boiler makers will be able to build a FF for maybe 50k$ including the helium plumbing, a HUGE helium compressor, and a dozen General Atomics or Maxwell caps at around $1,000 each including fuse(s) and capbank controller. My vision of the FF for that niche market is to install the reactor as an easily removable cylinder with a diameter of .33 to 1 meter positioned on the axial centerline of a boiler with around 3 meter diameter.

Thinking like a boiler maker and his prospects,” IF this electric hocus-pocus pans out, a simple field-installed upgrade covers our bases. If it never pans out, we get the steam we need while paying next to nothing in energy. IF we ever make electricity with this, the intermittent nature of it means we can sell it to reduce or eliminate our lighting bill.”

Detroit was selling Fords long before Cadillacs, in other words. A market for basic heat/steam will be a lot easier sell than a boiler room generator, because you’re selling the holy grail, and I’m selling fuel efficiency.

[Aeronaut]

Brian H wrote:

Realistically, I don’t think anyone will want to buy a license until we at least succeed in our experiment. At that point, someone might, on the assumption they could get a better deal than after the prototype is developed and everyone will want a license. This is a possible route to financing the more expensive engineering phase.

Thank you! I have been trying to make that point: licensees won’t pay for a pig-in-a-poke; that’s what investors are for! :cheese: 😉

As long as we look at FF strictly as an electrical generator, I agree. Viewed as an existing heat source that may or may not ever produce net energy, however, FF can convert industrial boiler design from combustible fuels to electrically heated, yielding energy in/out numbers that look impossible if you don’t know about the FF reactor. The immediately compelling reasons to license are to reduce fuel costs and improve steam quality. Eliminating combustible fuels in a boiler makes operating costs more stable, keeps the EPA from meddling, and shows the end-user is environmentally responsible.

Placing the FF down the centerline of a 3 meter diameter boiler is a very elegant shielding arrangement that leaves the rest of the length open for the gyrotron, which the patent calls for to couple the ion beam to the solenoid. The helium generated is another way to influence the net operating cost projections. The longer the boiler, the thinner the lead plug at the end of the barrel. 9 to 10 meters is a fairly common length.

Here’s a few links that only begin to explore industrial steam boilers in Google.

http://www.epa.gov/airmarkt/progsregs/nox/docs/bessette.pdf is about 2 pages describing the vast differences between industrial and utility steam loads.

http://www.thomasnet.com/products/steam-boilers-6132807-1.html The online Thomas Registry. The full text of the 4th ad is quoted below. Looks like just what we’re looking for to expand awareness until breakeven is achieved. Now we’re down to a 7MBTU/hr heat surplus during peak steam demand. Wonder what Rematog’s supplier would charge for that exchanger?

Miura Boiler, Inc. – Rolling Meadows, IL
Manufacturer
http://www.miuraboiler.com/Steam-Boilers
Company Profile: Custom manufacturer of boilers including steam boilers suitable for industrial applications. High pressure steam gas/oil boilers specifications include models ranging from 100 hp to 300 hp, 150 maximum operating psig, heat output ranging from 2,343,000 btu/hr to 10,050,000 btu/hr, main steam outlet…
Steam Boilers Product Catalog with CAD:

The biggest factor complicating my design is not knowing the capacitor dimensions and terminal locations. I’m currently guessing 15 inch diameter by 5 feet length. Also, given the production engineering challenge of roughly 1,000 foils of differing sizes, it may be a while before FF generators come rolling off the assembly lines. A boiler can do desalinization this year unless I’m missing some key engineering detail.

[Aeronaut]

Very, very well put, Rezwan, especially the first light bulb analogy.

Here’s a few links that only begin to explore industrial steam boilers in Google.

http://www.epa.gov/airmarkt/progsregs/nox/docs/bessette.pdf is about 2 pages describing the vast differences between industrial and utility steam loads.

http://www.thomasnet.com/products/steam-boilers-6132807-1.html The online Thomas Registry. The full text of the 4th ad is quoted below. Looks like just what we’re looking for to expand awareness until the second scenario.

Miura Boiler, Inc. – Rolling Meadows, IL
Manufacturer
http://www.miuraboiler.com/Steam-Boilers
Company Profile: Custom manufacturer of boilers including steam boilers suitable for industrial applications. High pressure steam gas/oil boilers specifications include models ranging from 100 hp to 300 hp, 150 maximum operating psig, heat output ranging from 2,343,000 btu/hr to 10,050,000 btu/hr, main steam outlet…
Steam Boilers Product Catalog with CAD:

[Aeronaut]

Rematog made a rock-solid case for FF not being able to power a 3,000 PSI+, 21 stage turbine generator. He also priced out a He to air heat exchanger. I’m proposing a He to water heat exchanger.

“Boiler” and water heater are terms that are often used interchangeably in factories. Depending on the application, the industrial water heating industry could see FF as a more fuel-efficient and eco-friendly way to make hot water and/or low-pressure steam. These outfits are already geared up to make multi-million dollar water heaters, so FF could look like a fairly minor design change, rather than a huge capital investment.

If the fusion pans out, great. If not, they still gain a competitive edge until the rest of the industry has to follow suit or look like outdated greenwashers.

[Aeronaut]

Brian H wrote:

I’m trying to sift from what you write the answer to my question: “what is to be gained with public support and awareness?” It is very hard to sell a concept to the non-conceptual public, or to businesses. You, and to some extent Rezwan, seem to be prepared to have the Society batter its brains out trying to do both. For what? Eric’s research will or will not succeed. If it succeeds, it will be easy to attract potential early adopters to fund $3-5Million worth of engineering refinement. What is NOT worth doing is turning that over to someone else to accomplish, for example. That is an open invitation to loss of control, or being “squelched”.

But as a side note, there is something I haven’t mentioned before, because it isn’t quite yet an issue: once something is demonstrated to be possible, it is not necessary to divulge the secrets of how it’s done to have others duplicate or surpass your results. The CERTAINTY that it is possible is enough. I am not saying this is a threat to LPP; rather on the contrary, I am saying that once Eric succeeds in Phase I, you can be sure that within a few years somewhere someone or someones will have a working FF generator. And then everyone will be hell-bent to duplicate that. SO: LPP’s plan to be absolutely open and free-handed with licenses is the best way to keep some leadership and influence; attempting to control the information is bootless.

Dang it Brian, you’re making me think! 🙂
Public support and awareness will be required in order to loosen regulatory issues despite the entrenched lobbying of several industries. But in an elegant campaign design, it happens as a cascading byproduct, not the direct target.

We don’t sell anything. Selling is hard work, compared to making it easy for leaders with specific problems to buy FF heaters. Hmmm…. maybe I should target boiler manufacturers as well as end user companies. Since boiler operators have to be licensed, I’m sure the manufacturers do, too. The hardest part of this will be getting them to believe they really can run almost anything they can build for less than $10 a year in fuel costs. Maybe I should lead with a $10,000 annual fuel bill…….

This market is engineers, marketers, and salespeople, not physicists and scientists. They read blueprints, not patents and physics constants. I’m sure they’ll also be highly motivated to further develop their competitive edge by making making the boiler power its own pumps and fans, then ramp up into powering more of the building.

I had a gig cleaning a very old industrial boiler room a few years back. Cleaner, quieter, smaller have to be important benefits. (I almost said selling points- old habits die hard).

The PC was an incredibly constipated design for its day. IBM controlled the architecture- the specification- and reaped branding benefits that were off the charts. Google is one of many competing search engines. Since the goal never was to concentrate manufacturing, I fail to see how “control” is an issue.

[Aeronaut]

Awww, all Google wants is to catalog and control mankind’s knowledge, and through that communications. For openers. Orwell’s rolling in his grave, I’m sure.

[Aeronaut]

Guess what’s going to drive North American popular interest? China-phobia, lol. Guess what would happen if Iran or North Korea announced plans to build FF- especially if they used the N word.

Every mass movement has what is known as a “tipping point”- the critical mass where all of a sudden every organization on the planet will either have one or more FF’s or is talking about them. I’d like to light the fuse on this happening well before the end of 2010.

[Aeronaut]

Jolly Roger wrote: (edited)

Thanx for the links, Jolly Roger. I’d been under the impression that ion thrusters wouldn’t work in the atmosphere.

Technically, the PHP is a plasma thruster, not an ion thruster. Ion thrusters won’t work in the atmosphere because they are high speed, but low thrust. The PHP by itself may not have enough thrust, but in the engine I envision, it is used instead of jet fuel to heat air, which provides the actual thrust.

Think such an engine could do runway to escape velocity?

Maybe. Put liquid N2 tanks where the jet fuel used to be, some injectors in front of the HPH, and we just might have us an honest-to-goodness Space Plane! However, in that configuration we would still be spinning the compressors, which would be a waste of energy at high altitudes. It would be better to install additional thrusters exposed directly to space.
The SR-71 Blackbird engines are a tiny section deep within each nacelle. Most of the nacelle was used to switch airflow between the turbine and ramjet sections. This could solve the wasted energy snag, but it may be mass-prohibitive. Otoh, we can make the bird’s electricity the good ol’ fashioned way by spinning the turbines.

Space Planes always make the cover of Popular Science and Popular Mechanics- even the imaginary ones.

Could we get sufficient thrust by using the thruster’s high velocity to throw a “heavy” propellant?

[Aeronaut]

What others think, say, and do is what the mass media used to be about. Nowadays there’s a bunch of splinter media that can be monitored in places like Google Trends. This is beginning to be referred to as “the global consciousness”. Our goal ultimately is to influence this. Ford was all over Google Trends the morning after the Knight Rider pilot, for instance. In the short term, early adopters will have very brief exclusivity relative to how early they got in and how fast the bandwagon gains momentum. I submit that it’s foggy, so we don’t really know much about the hill, other than it is there, and very little effort should be needed to get the bandwagon rolling.

While the instant credibility these heavy hitters can lend FF is desirable, they are mentioned only as candidates for an open-source license. I personally favor the collegial collaboration model that software had back in the Day, when Microsoft was still known (to some geeks, anyway) as a place that wrote interpreters and assemblers.

No way, no how, do I advocate letting any one corporation other than LPP controlling FF, and I apologize if I ever did give the impression that I do.

What we have to sell is a device (concept, actually) that can help real people solve real problems while the scientific and engineering challenges are being minimized, which may turn out to be never. By offering blueprints with the license, the early adopters can raise the bar on green vs. greenwashing.

Its all about separating the dreamers from the doers.

[Aeronaut]

Brian H wrote:

Love it, Brian. “Fist high to me is waist-high to you” could have been used, too.

Which now reminds me of an image, which I can’t post here, but is at: http://tinyurl.com/ObamaFloat .

Question: what is Hillary holding on to?

Answer: His Stimulus Package!

:coolgrin:
With a punchline that visual, there’s no need to visit, lol.

[Aeronaut]

Very clear explanation. It was late and I thought 300% was something for nothing [grin].

[Aeronaut]

Brian H wrote:

…

The FF reactor and seems to be an effective source of lower level heat. Therefore we do not need perfection, which is a purely mathematical concept, in order to benefit real people with real problems.

I know of the X-Scan plans, but where do you see info that it “is already being used as an X-ray generator”?
There’s a homepage link to a news story about a Japanese group that’s interested in X-ray generators achieving high energy transfer efficiencies.

[Aeronaut]

Love it, Brian. “Fist high to me is waist-high to you” could have been used, too.

[Aeronaut]

Brian H wrote: Leave Biden and Obugabe alone. They are the last people you want to fund you. Just ask GM and the banks who were forced to take money they didn’t want in return for senior shares and a LOUD government voice in their affairs.

I agree. Here in West Michigan the woes of GM, Chrysler, and their “ecosystem” are always good for fear headlines and TV coverage. Why, just last night you could see Governor Granholm on Obama’s left as he announced what he was going to impose on his 2 new car companies.

[Aeronaut]

Thanx for the background, Brian. The tone and case-building is going to help me a lot. Two things I do consciously avoid are sounding like a zealot and/or utopian.

Yes, some will believe, but most won’t. My target audience is people who control vast influence and need this technology bad. I did some YouTube experiments last year. One was titled “This Sale Took Five Words”. See the logic? I don’t have to waste anybody’s time writing overly persuasive copy. I’m making my case to people who bought into the concept of a five word close. And 70% of the decision to buy, or at least read more, is made in the headline.

How do you target magnetic field, confinement density and energy efficiency? Mainly by experimenting with anode and cathode lengths and radii. I’m sure you know the difference between split-testing and multi-variant testing. Even 4 variable MVT takes a lot longer to fully optimize a sales letter, and even then you’ll be using it as the control to test new headlines, calls to action, etc.

The FF reactor is already being used as an X-ray generator, and seems to be an effective source of lower level heat. Therefore we do not need perfection, which is a purely mathematical concept, in order to benefit real people with real problems.

[Author]

Posts