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  • #8839
    Avatarzapkitty
    Member

    benf wrote: I see what you mean, Vansig. I’ve looked it up in Wikipedia. The problem for me is adjusting the coil (paths) manually to make it circular will be very difficult. I can key in a math formula in the 3D program I’m using, which I’ve never done before. I’m searching the web for the handy formula that will just generate the correct coil, but haven’t found it yet.

    … does your”helix” command have an option that’s something like “around curves”?

    If so it might save you much time if you draw the wire that runs through the core of the coil as a flat circular curve first and then tell the software to wrap the helix around that curve. Hook it all up and “pipe” should do the trick.

    #8841
    Avatarbenf
    Participant

    There’s a bend function that allows me to bend a coil into a semi circle. So I don’t need a formula after all. I can make a full circle by splicing. I wonder if there should be multiple stacked coils? Or is just one going to soak up all the energy of the beam?

    #8843
    Avatarzapkitty
    Member

    benf wrote: There’s a bend function that allows me to bend a coil into a semi circle. So I don’t need a formula after all. I can make a full circle by splicing. I wonder if there should be multiple stacked coils? Or is just one going to soak up all the energy of the beam?

    …. somewhere around here there was talk of multiple coils for alphas of different energy levels but that might be a bit much right now for your basic setup.

    I’m taking this as a tool for quickly teaching the basics… was I right?

    #8845
    Avatarjamesr
    Member

    benf wrote: There’s a bend function that allows me to bend a coil into a semi circle. So I don’t need a formula after all. I can make a full circle by splicing. I wonder if there should be multiple stacked coils? Or is just one going to soak up all the energy of the beam?

    I would think it was easiest as a formula. I’m not sure how your program expects it, but a Rogowski coil (or coiled coil) could be parameterised by the following

    if R is the major radius, and r is the minor radius, and the coil is extending H per major turn in the z direction, and h per minor turn along the major coil.

    The the position of its the major axis in Cartesian coordinates

    X = R cos(theta)
    Y = -R sin(theta)
    Z = H*L
    where theta = 2*pi*L*H

    and defining the minor spiral as
    x’ = r cos(phi)
    y’ = r sin(phi)
    z’ = 0
    where phi = 2*pi*h*L

    Then superimposing the two gives the final position as

    x= X+ x’ cos(theta) +y’ cos(alpha)sin(theta)
    y= Y – x’ sin(theta) + y’ cos(alpha)cos(theta)
    z= Z + y’ sin(alpha) + z’ cos(alpha)

    and alpha is a constant tilt angle

    I haven’t checked this, but I think the form is roughly correct.

    mmm… looking at it now maybe there is an easier way!

    #8846
    Avatarzapkitty
    Member

    jamesr wrote:
    mmm… looking at it now maybe there is an easier way!

    … it all depends on what you want from the process. For me the easier way is telling the software what I want and letting it do the work 馃槈

    … cheap and tawdry workmanship, that’s me…

    #8847
    Avatarbenf
    Participant

    I’m going to have to chew on your formula for a while, Jamesr. That’s impressive! I’ll have to take a look at the 101electronics web site math section to see if I can decifer it and then implement it. The best I could come up with was this Wikipedia illustration of a circle generating a coil, but it’s in a straight line.

    Sine coil

    In the mean time here’s a screen grab of what I’ve come up with. Yes Zapkitty, this exercise is for educational purposes, myself included!
    Thanks!

    Attached files

    #8851
    Avatarjamesr
    Member

    Here’s an image of what I reckon it should look like (photo is actually of a lightbulb filament)

    Attached files

    #8854
    AvatarAeronaut
    Member

    jamesr wrote: Here’s an image of what I reckon it should look like (photo is actually of a lightbulb filament)

    Cool! Hadn’t realized the coil itself was coiled. I take it this is going to be very noisy to cool with pressurized helium?

    #8859
    Avatarzapkitty
    Member

    Aeronaut wrote:

    Here’s an image of what I reckon it should look like (photo is actually of a lightbulb filament)

    Cool! Hadn’t realized the coil itself was coiled. I take it this is going to be very noisy to cool with pressurized helium?

    Why would you waste helium on the coil? You’re not limited to the confined volume of the FF core so you can run a (much cheaper) oil or water loop through there.

    … and I was thinking of the open-ended style of Rogowski coil…

    Attached files

    #8862
    Avatarjamesr
    Member

    zapkitty wrote:

    Here’s an image of what I reckon it should look like (photo is actually of a lightbulb filament)

    Cool! Hadn’t realized the coil itself was coiled. I take it this is going to be very noisy to cool with pressurized helium?

    Why would you waste helium on the coil? You’re not limited to the confined volume of the FF core so you can run a (much cheaper) oil or water loop through there.

    … and I was thinking of the open-ended style of Rogowski coil…

    Good image – just what I had in my mind.

    #8863
    Avatarzapkitty
    Member

    jamesr wrote:

    … and I was thinking of the open-ended style of Rogowski coil…

    Good image – just what I had in my mind.

    … and this time I didn’t waste all those hours of work with a viewport still zoomed into unrecognizability 馃檪

    #8865
    AvatarAeronaut
    Member

    Great image, Zap. I was figuring helium because it’s going to be handy in the rest of the cooling system (everything’s going to run warm at least) and because I’m neither an engineer or scientist, lol.

    #8867
    Avatarvansig
    Member

    benf wrote: I see what you mean, Vansig. I’ve looked it up in Wikipedia. The problem for me is adjusting the coil (paths) manually to make it circular will be very difficult. I can key in a math formula in the 3D program I’m using, which I’ve never done before. I’m searching the web for the handy formula that will just generate the correct coil, but haven’t found it yet.

    ok.
    let the toroid’s major diameter = D, and its minor diameter = d;
    let the object’s centre be at (0,0,0);
    trace a virtual path, P, having velocity W radians/s around the centre, at radius D/2,
    such that at time t,
    P(t) is a cartesian-coordinate point, whose value is the ordered triple, ( D路cos(Wt)/2, D路sin(Wt)/2, 0 );
    this is a reference circle.

    Trace a solid path Q, having velocity w radians/s around P, such that at time t,
    Q(t) = ( D路cos(Wt)/2 + d路cos(Wt)路cos(wt)/2, D路sin(Wt)/2 + d路sin(Wt)路cos(wt)/2, d路sin(wt)/2 ).

    i haven’t tested this, but i think it will do.

    #8868
    Avatarvansig
    Member

    jamesr wrote: Here’s an image of what I reckon it should look like (photo is actually of a lightbulb filament)

    i think these will be separate segments, because the ions will be slowing down as they travel through

    #8870
    AvatarBrian H
    Member

    Is it necessary to get to the level of detail of segments of the coil for this short demo? It might be more a distraction than anything; it certainly isn’t core to comprehending the process.

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