NIMBY FUD

[Rematog]

Electrical Sub-stations do NOT have any normal staffing. They just have a fence with a gate and a lock. Totally NOT secure location. In fact, current price of copper wiring has led to increase in thefts from these sub-stations. Haven’t heard of a fatality from trying to steal a live wire……yet.

As for service stations….lol, A lone 17 year old attendant at 03:00….. to be in charge of a fission plant, producing x-ray and some neutron radiation….with a small tank of a neurotoxin for fuel…this is security???

I just don’t understand why the insistence on this….but, really it doesn’t matter. The government WILL decide where and how they are deployed. And, at first (and likely for a long time…), it would be deployed by utilities and major industries.

The “focus” of Focus Fusion needs to be making it happen at all. Once licenses are granted to manufactures, such as GE, Westinghouse, Siemens, Mitsubishi, etc… Then they will sell to buyer’s who will have to get licenses and permits to install, from agencies as varied as the NRC to the local zoning commission.

Rematog.

[Brian H]

Rematog wrote: Electrical Sub-stations do NOT have any normal staffing. They just have a fence with a gate and a lock. Totally NOT secure location. In fact, current price of copper wiring has led to increase in thefts from these sub-stations. Haven’t heard of a fatality from trying to steal a live wire……yet.

As for service stations….lol, A lone 17 year old attendant at 03:00….. to be in charge of a fission plant, producing x-ray and some neutron radiation….with a small tank of a neurotoxin for fuel…this is security???

I just don’t understand why the insistence on this….but, really it doesn’t matter. The government WILL decide where and how they are deployed. And, at first (and likely for a long time…), it would be deployed by utilities and major industries.

The “focus” of Focus Fusion needs to be making it happen at all. Once licenses are granted to manufactures, such as GE, Westinghouse, Siemens, Mitsubishi, etc… Then they will sell to buyer’s who will have to get licenses and permits to install, from agencies as varied as the NRC to the local zoning commission.

Rematog.

You’d have to disassemble the heavy outer reactor shielding to get at the X-ray/neutron radiation. If it seemed necessary to prevent that possibility :question: a heavy locked steel cage would be a fairly trivial addition.

I personally find it hard to project how the government(s) would react to the huge tectonic economic forces FF will release. It almost feels like a “singularity”, a point where the rate of change beggars all prediction. Casey Stengel was never so prescient as now.

[Transmute]

I would think that with a few camera’s an automated security system could be used that could detect trespassers before they even jump the fence, alert a security station somewhere with the live camera video and than the reactor can be turn off instantly and police can be called to the scene. Or perhaps an automated turret or even a remote controlled kill bot?

http://www.tacticalwarfightergear.com/graphics/military-robot-1.jpg

Just saying, automated security would not be hard, it practically an electric power sub-station, it really does not need much more then a fence and cameras.

[Brian H]

Transmute wrote: I would think that with a few camera’s an automated security system could be used that could detect trespassers before they even jump the fence, alert a security station somewhere with the live camera video and than the reactor can be turn off instantly and police can be called to the scene. Or perhaps an automated turret or even a remote controlled kill bot?

http://www.tacticalwarfightergear.com/graphics/military-robot-1.jpg

Just saying, automated security would not be hard, it practically an electric power sub-station, it really does not need much more then a fence and cameras.

True, and there’s not much there worth stealing or messing with. Short of trucking off the entire sub-station.

[Rezwan]

Transmute wrote: Or perhaps an automated turret or even a remote controlled kill bot?

Hey, ease up on the overkill bot!

By the way, what are those folks stealing the copper for? I’m trying to imagine the copper chop shop. I’d heard of this in 3rd world context, not in general.

[Brian H]

Rezwan wrote:

Or perhaps an automated turret or even a remote controlled kill bot?

Hey, ease up on the overkill bot!

By the way, what are those folks stealing the copper for? I’m trying to imagine the copper chop shop. I’d heard of this in 3rd world context, not in general.

The price of copper has risen enough to bring the practice here. (It about doubled Sept ’04 – Dec ’05, and then doubled again by about May ’06, and has held at about that level.) Scrap dealers are not noted for their integrity in turning away material with dubious provenance. Imagine the explanations for having 5 miles of #2 wire to sell … 😆

[Rematog]

Nothing you’ve stated has addressed the fundamental fact that they will require significant security. Killer Robots? This is a great idea for an office building. Janitor killed, $20 million wrongful death settlement. But really. All of this security, remote maintenance (read, crew costing $300-500 an hour spending at least two travel hours per job (shudder), driving in a $50k maint. truck, not having the right part on board….etc.

What’s the response time if there is a security breach? Who responds, local police? The county sheriff? What happens if a fuel gas leak detector alarms (there would have to be one, the stuff is toxic). A radiation detector alarms? Who responds, how fast? I assume the unit would be tripped immediately by it’s control system. And stays off line till a maint. crew gets there to fix the problem.

Also, distributed installations to power, say a building, would also have a grid connection (and not many would be unconnected to grid, for power during shutdown, etc). That means it would need remote switching etc. You can NOT have a power source hooked to the grid that can’t be remotely isolated. Otherwise, you back feed power when not expected and kill linemen. The union frowns on this. ….wait. Just had a thought. How are you thinking your going to control these things. Via Internet. Not a good idea.

Security requirements alone for something like this would make that difficult to impossible. Allowing Internet access to a plant control system is not normally allowed. There are major security concerns just having third part access to plant LAN for equipment maintenance. And the LAN is NOT part of the Plant DCS. You would need to install some very secure (read expensive) means of accessing the Focus Fusion module’s control PLC/DCS, if not installing a dedicated hard wire connection. And it would have to shut-down on losing it’s Internet connection, otherwise, it’s not monitored at all.

I could easily see the installation cost of a single Focus Fusion module being twice that of a “central” location with a hundred (or more) modules.

And they will require any number of permits….for each site. Heck, the permits alone will cost tens of thousands per site. Remember, we are talking about installing 100,000 or more modules in the first 5-10 years. Just think of the effort needed to obtain 100,000 site permits. More job security for lawyers. Like they need it.

I just don’t see this being well thought out. It feels to me like distributed operation is being insisted on based on philosophical reasons, not economic/engineering ones. And deployment of hundreds of billions of dollars of assets will be driven by economic/engineering and political reasons….not philosophy.

[Brian H]

Rematog wrote: Nothing you’ve stated has addressed the fundamental fact that they will require significant security.
…

Nothing you’ve stated has established that they will require significant security.

Why?

What’s being protected?

What’s to steal? Vandalism is the major danger. The decaborane is not going to be readily accessible, and my “steel cage” suggestion is plenty of discouragement for most purposes.

[Transmute]

Rematog wrote: Nothing you’ve stated has addressed the fundamental fact that they will require significant security. Killer Robots? This is a great idea for an office building. Janitor killed, $20 million wrongful death settlement. But really. All of this security, remote maintenance (read, crew costing $300-500 an hour spending at least two travel hours per job (shudder), driving in a $50k maint. truck, not having the right part on board….etc.

What’s the response time if there is a security breach? Who responds, local police? The county sheriff? What happens if a fuel gas leak detector alarms (there would have to be one, the stuff is toxic). A radiation detector alarms? Who responds, how fast? I assume the unit would be tripped immediately by it’s control system. And stays off line till a maint. crew gets there to fix the problem.

Also, distributed installations to power, say a building, would also have a grid connection (and not many would be unconnected to grid, for power during shutdown, etc). That means it would need remote switching etc. You can NOT have a power source hooked to the grid that can’t be remotely isolated. Otherwise, you back feed power when not expected and kill linemen. The union frowns on this. ….wait. Just had a thought. How are you thinking your going to control these things. Via Internet. Not a good idea.

Security requirements alone for something like this would make that difficult to impossible. Allowing Internet access to a plant control system is not normally allowed. There are major security concerns just having third part access to plant LAN for equipment maintenance. And the LAN is NOT part of the Plant DCS. You would need to install some very secure (read expensive) means of accessing the Focus Fusion module’s control PLC/DCS, if not installing a dedicated hard wire connection. And it would have to shut-down on losing it’s Internet connection, otherwise, it’s not monitored at all.

I could easily see the installation cost of a single Focus Fusion module being twice that of a “central” location with a hundred (or more) modules.

And they will require any number of permits….for each site. Heck, the permits alone will cost tens of thousands per site. Remember, we are talking about installing 100,000 or more modules in the first 5-10 years. Just think of the effort needed to obtain 100,000 site permits. More job security for lawyers. Like they need it.

I just don’t see this being well thought out. It feels to me like distributed operation is being insisted on based on philosophical reasons, not economic/engineering ones. And deployment of hundreds of billions of dollars of assets will be driven by economic/engineering and political reasons….not philosophy.

1. There is no radiation leak,
2. the fuel on hand is in small amounts, by your argument propane and natural gas substations would need heavy security, which they don’t have anything more then a fence, in some case not even that!
3. Windmills also using call in maintenance, that does stop them from being profitable, windmill also require permits, still not stopping them, people are buying them up like hot cakes!

Yes the Philosophy is that if its safer (compared to natural gas sub-station with it huge tanks of highly flammable gas) and cheaper (then any other form of power) the people will buy it, even if they need to jump through flaming hoops! I don’t see a problem with this philosophy, in places were wind and solar have become cheaper the demand has grow astronomically, no matter the need for maintenance, protocol or permits.

[Rematog]

I admit, I don’t know how dangerous a neurotoxin the Decaborane used as fuel is. Is it up there with military nerve gas? Or is it very mild, taking a large dose and long time to cause a problem. One thing I’m sure of, propane is not a neurotoxin. If it is a very dangerous material, then the reason for security is obvious.

Radiation. The general public is very uncomfortable about it. That is a simple fact. It may not be based in fact, but the fear is, never the less, a political reality. So, no, it will that a long time (my opinion is >20 years) before the public will accept them near urban areas.

I would point out that your example, windmills, tend to be installed in “wind farms”. Land acquisition, transmission access and ease of maintenance are all reasons for this. So, your example has aspects that support my point. Certainly, some wind power units are singletons. Mostly as one will support the load the owner wants to supply.

I’ve never said that there would be no distributed installations. And I would agree that more distributed use will grow in time. But there are also reasons to centralize things. These factors will, in my opinion, for reasons I’ve stated, lead to initial deployment being more centralized, repowering existing plants and installation of new FF “nodes” at locations were transmission, land use and other factors make it a good choice. Heavy industry, remote loads, ships, etc. will also be early locations. After the first period of deployment, smaller nodes, nearer load, will likely develop.

I’ve not seen anyone give a reason, other the philosophic, why extreme distribution, one for this building, one for that neighborhood, etc. has enough advantage in transmission cost to overcome the dis-advantage in installation and operations cost it would entail. But, as no one yet has hard numbers for these things, it will remain strictly opinion until Focus Fusion is actually deployed.

But, I’ve never disagreed that the economic, environmental and supply availability advantages of FF would drive it to very, very rapid deployment. I’ve only disagreed on the method of that deployment.

[Brian H]

Rematog wrote: I admit, I don’t know how dangerous a neurotoxin the Decaborane used as fuel is. Is it up there with military nerve gas? Or is it very mild, taking a large dose and long time to cause a problem. One thing I’m sure of, propane is not a neurotoxin. If it is a very dangerous material, then the reason for security is obvious.

Radiation. The general public is very uncomfortable about it. That is a simple fact. It may not be based in fact, but the fear is, never the less, a political reality. So, no, it will that a long time (my opinion is >20 years) before the public will accept them near urban areas.

I would point out that your example, windmills, tend to be installed in “wind farms”. Land acquisition, transmission access and ease of maintenance are all reasons for this. So, your example has aspects that support my point. Certainly, some wind power units are singletons. Mostly as one will support the load the owner wants to supply.

I’ve never said that there would be no distributed installations. And I would agree that more distributed use will grow in time. But there are also reasons to centralize things. These factors will, in my opinion, for reasons I’ve stated, lead to initial deployment being more centralized, repowering existing plants and installation of new FF “nodes” at locations were transmission, land use and other factors make it a good choice. Heavy industry, remote loads, ships, etc. will also be early locations. After the first period of deployment, smaller nodes, nearer load, will likely develop.

I’ve not seen anyone give a reason, other the philosophic, why extreme distribution, one for this building, one for that neighborhood, etc. has enough advantage in transmission cost to overcome the dis-advantage in installation and operations cost it would entail. But, as no one yet has hard numbers for these things, it will remain strictly opinion until Focus Fusion is actually deployed.

But, I’ve never disagreed that the economic, environmental and supply availability advantages of FF would drive it to very, very rapid deployment. I’ve only disagreed on the method of that deployment.

Based on history, I’d expect a wide variety of different approaches and models in different circumstances and jurisdictions. These will attract different costs and have different outcomes, and if any are obviously significantly worse or better, that will become known reasonably quickly.

[Rematog]

Brian,

That is very true.

[Transmute]

The public does not fear medical X-ray and NMRIs. A focus fusion reactor potentially has no residue radiation, Its as safe as a medical X-ray (a very very powerful x-ray)

Dedcaborane is as lethal as ammonia, ammonia by the way farmers us on millions of acre of land.

I’ve seen many windmills that aren’t in windfarms, It should be noted that windmill get more and more competive with coal and gas power in wind farms, while focus fusion if it works would be cheaper then coal or gas no matter the configuration.

If you don’t understand the advantages for a decentrilized power grid, then look it up.

Why stop there, why not “remain strictly opinion” until focus fusion actually is proven to work.

[JimmyT]

How much security do they have at your local water purifacation plant? Big chlorine tanks. Under pressure. Previously used as a chemical warfare agent. I bet that they don’t have anywhere near the security being proposed for this relatively trivial ammount of material.

[Rematog]

No, they don’t require security of that nature at water treatment plants (but, they too are centralized facilities, most with a 24/7 staff). Didn’t say it was rational, in fact, said it was not.

But, Focus Fusion plants WILL, for the first period at least, be regulated and licensed by the NRC in the United States. They will, in my opinion, require security.

Just remember, I’m seeing this thru eyes experienced in maintenance, operation and construction of heavy industrial facilities. I would be very poorly equipped to critic the methodology of a laboratory. It may be I’m more concerned than you are, due to having to have dealt with people cutting fences, stealing (usually by employees of either the company or contractors on site doing work) and having the public “intervene”. I’ve personally had some one walk up to me and threaten to “bring friends and guns and dynamite and blow this place up” if it was not shut down (a coal fired plant). He was a crack-pot and local police dealt with him.

But…..this stuff is real.

I’ve had to deal directly with State, and indirectly with federal environmental, OSHA and pressure vessel code inspectors. I’ve seen some real chickenshit. I could fill a couple of posts with stories of just plain stupid stuff they have required. Not something to make the environment cleaner or the work place safer, but to comply with their interpretation of the bureaucratic regulatory system they run.

Do not think that Focus Fusion will somehow be immune to this stuff.

One pressure vessel inspector (for State of California), required that some piping be torn out and replaced, for a second time, because after it was replaced the first time and all necessary inspections and paperwork given to him (this had been neglected by the contractor that built the plant), the wind blew the papers out of his clipboard while he was in the parking lot. He then refused to accept replacement documents, and wanted the pipe torn out and replace again. He first name was, I swear this is true, Nimrod.

PS: My letter of protest to Mr N. T.’s boss resulted in the acceptance of the replacement documents. But still…..

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