[Aeronaut]

HermannH wrote:

All the above points are indeed true, but I’m still not clear how far over unity one needs to be for economic viability, nor where other fusion approaches would sit on that curve. (For that matter, I’m not sure what the relative “mine to outlet” energy gain is for coal-fired or nuclear powerplants — does anyone have estimates on that?)

As far as I know FF is closer to unity (or above) than any of the other approaches. The big question is: can it get high enough above unity? Many of the other systems need to be physically scaled up (very expensive) to achieve unity or above. Even then there is no guarantee that they will be economical.

We need to play the ball where it lays. Once the bandwagon begins rolling, a lot of fresh capital and talent will come out of the woodwork to figure out how to improve the various efficiencies. Until then, we have a machine that is more than adequate for making the steam to heat buildings and melt plastics and many metals. It’s going to do this with or without breaking even electrically. The electrical output is the icing on the cake.

[Aeronaut]

annodomini2 wrote: Anyone considered using the capacitors themselves for shielding?

Other than possible dielectric breakdown, is there anything else that may suffer from this approach?

I sketched out a similar idea a few weeks when the pix started coming out. You could save a lot of plate steel by using an octagonal water jacket with 4 of the sides doubling as a common wall for 3 of the caps. This would reduce the shielding effectiveness due to not having a continuous boron and lead shield around the entire reaction chamber.

This would help make a smaller and lighter design but is a public relations nightmare because that would raise the operating radioactivity levels above background levels. I went with mounting the caps, charging, trigger controllers, and high voltage/high current parts on a sleeve that slides over the proper 3 layer shielding.

[Aeronaut]

Outstanding idea, Rezwan. It should have a prominant image link above the fold on the index page, and would add a lot to our credibility. After all, who else publishes their own specifics, let alone that of their competitors? Nobody that I’m currently aware of. But Helion‘s charts provide a good model for the chart design.

[Aeronaut]

ITER’s on track, too, aka the Gravy Train.

[Aeronaut]

Brian H wrote:

I haven’t seen this mentioned here: http://www.helionenergy.com/ . It’s a straight-thru pulsing system which looks to have some promise. Can’t speak to its feasibility, but they have a 1/3 scale model which is operational. Claim is that about $10 million would allow up-size to commercial unity+ system in 2-3 years. Uses neutron/heat/steam system, so has heavy inefficiencies to deal with. Don’t know how the equipment would/will stand up to heavy neutron flux. Generates and recycles Tritium as part of the process.

Too bad they crippled it on the drawing board. btw- doesn’t Tri-Alpha own the FRCB patent?
Hm, I don’t think you can patent a phenomenon or process, just a particular way of generating or using it.

I just read their PDF. The telling phrase explains how their approach is clearly superior to Today’s Technology. :smirk: Thinking what that machine would measure at 3x (27x current volume), it isn’t surprising that they’re predicating that phase on government funding. Despite the lack of any meaningful data about their current energy output.

[Aeronaut]

jamesr wrote: The recent news has recently been mentioned on Slashdot. Most of the followups are the usual mix of skeptic and if only people weren’t so scared of anything nuclear type comment.

I was just trying to think of whether to come back with a slightly more informative post…

By all means do, James. Thanx for the heads-up.

[Aeronaut]

Brian H wrote: I haven’t seen this mentioned here: http://www.helionenergy.com/ . It’s a straight-thru pulsing system which looks to have some promise. Can’t speak to its feasibility, but they have a 1/3 scale model which is operational. Claim is that about $10 million would allow up-size to commercial unity+ system in 2-3 years. Uses neutron/heat/steam system, so has heavy inefficiencies to deal with. Don’t know how the equipment would/will stand up to heavy neutron flux. Generates and recycles Tritium as part of the process.

Too bad they crippled it on the drawing board. btw- doesn’t Tri-Alpha own the FRCB patent?

[Aeronaut]

I easily see the US’s environmental laws making us the last country to adopt the desalination plants. And that’s along the coasts.

[Aeronaut]

Phil’s Dad wrote: Rezwan, you speculate the scenario where “The issue is no longer carbon, or greenhouse gases. But C&T;remains!”

I can’t for the life of me see why it would. 8-/

I think I am with Brian when he says;”Water rights will also become moot. Desalinization and other water purification and pumping options will open up with FF.”

In other words if there is plentiful / cheap energy then there is more than enough water to be had. No need for a cap. 🙂 The issue is only getting it to where it is needed but we already pay for that (where I come from anyway) so that doesn’t change anything fundamental. (Might be a few disused oil or gas pipelines that could be used for the purpose – just a thought because I have no idea if they are in the right place.)

To stray into the off topic area. %-P The “not the first shots” showed that “the machine needs to be tweaked and it wasn’t quite there.” I know the guys are busy but could we have a clue as what that means in practical terms?

C&T;will remain due to the money, influence, and inertia that got it this far, coupled with the fact that FF won’t be universally available until many years after FF goes into mass production, the prices have come down, the later adopters come aboard, etc.

Then there’s the bond issues to build water pipelines, and that puts a lot of North America at least 10 years from that water. I’d guess more like 20 years. The idea of re-purposing oil & gas pipelines is guaranteed to make a HUGE stink over here, even if the demand for oil and gas suddenly ceased.

On the brighter side, Obama’s blank check remains mostly unspent, so pipelines would make a great follow-up to Roosevelt’s TVA dam builders.

[Aeronaut]

dennisp wrote: Why thank you 🙂 …Didn’t realize that was how it started, but I did know that people were well aware of the rocketry application. Just haven’t found the specs anywhere. How fast can we get to Mars, what’s the highest speed we could get to, what would be the launch cost per pound…I’m guessing it would be in the same range as polywell designs, with cheaper hardware. (Polywell rocket specs here: http://nextbigfuture.com/2007/11/fusion-propulsion-if-bussard-iec-fusion.html) Then again, cost per watt is way cheaper with focus fusion, maybe launch costs would be somewhat cheaper as well.

I saw a design the other day for an implosion-based fusion rocket that could hit 20% lightspeed with two stages. Exhaust velocity is 6.3% lightspeed, about twice the Daedalus design. Here is is: http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/10/winterberg-fusion-rocket-could-go-20-of.html

So, just wondering how focus fusion compares to all this.

Glad to help, Dennis. Look up Jolly Roger’s threads for the details and alternatives.

The best way to bring launch cost down is to separate the payload at the end of a 69,000 mile space elevator tether to eliminate the chemical rockets while maximizing initial velocity. Our cousins at PolyWell are always going to have to have to drag the extra mass and energy overhead of their electromagnets with them, so there really is no direct comparison.

From what I’ve seen over there, their Navy funding is getting in the way of transparency and possibly results. Far as I know, I’m betting on FF to deliver on fusion’s long overdue promise the firstest, with the mostest. :coolsmile:

[Aeronaut]

Phil’s Dad wrote: I think you’ve just come full circle. Space thrusters were how this got started. Then someone thought “What if…”

Welcome :cheese:

Welcome to the FFS.

Yes, we have a thread around here somewhere where we determined (ok- speculated) that the best way to get thrust was to use FF to make the power for a specialized ion thruster, probably a VASIMIR.

[Aeronaut]

Yep, sewers are the drainage I had in mind. Hadn’t thought about the building boom, but it makes perfect sense to expect a big haphazard one like you’re predicting.

[Aeronaut]

I saw this on one of those gas pump signs this morning, claiming CAT is going to raise gasoline prices 158%. http://ourenergyvoice.com

The battle is joined.

If nothing else, that web design looks like a great candidate for FFS’s new look. This energy alliance may also be willing to help promote, if not directly sponsor FF.

[Aeronaut]

Rematog wrote: But, more seriously.

FF holds to promise of greatly increased material wealth for everyone….and in this case, that everyone means every human on planet earth.

Material wealth, don’t look down you nose at it!

Even if in the poorest areas of this planet that just means clean drinking water, sanitary sewers, elec. power for lighting, heating and cooking, cheaper food (lower cost for fertilizer and pumps for irrigation), affordable transportation, cheaper raw materials for homes, etc.

In other words, they will be able to achieve what we take for granted.

I agree with both posts, Rematog. Plumbing and draining the entire world is a very worthy investment of this new global wealth. Education and skills training come right behind it, imho. Sounds like making baby elephants in practice, though.

[Aeronaut]

Brian H wrote:

…

Look at any businesses that stand to gain from cheaper energy. Not many will loose [lose] catastrophically from fusion. Most are diversified and in fact may be heavily vested in fusion by the time it comes online.

I think it will be the oil-producing countries, rather than than corporations, that will take the hit when oil prices fall. Some have invested in natural infrastructure and production unrelated to oil; others have not. In many, all the money has gone to the ruling families so that the general population has gotten little. Some, like Mexico, are deep in debt. That will require democratization under adverse circumstances to pull them out of it by developing other resources.

Yes, read up on “The Devil’s Excrement” some time; it’s a term for oil invented by the first secretary general of OPEC–from Venuzuela, no less!! 😆
Here’s a link to an article about S. Korea vs. the ME, and the relative payoffs of brains and effort vs. oil and sloth: South Korea.

The need to leverage and engage the interest and brains and initiative and effort of the young in oil-producing countries in productive enterprises is absolute. Perhaps FF will reduce the “barriers to entry” to enough fields that they will get constructively involved, rather than looking for stuff to rip and blow up.

The same may well apply to the culture of nihilism and anomie and condescending post-modern deconstructionism in the West.

To change at least one country’s entire culture is not an overnight process, no matter how well your PR/sales campaign is financed, planned, and executed. Changing attitudes about drunk driving and tobacco are two cases in point. Each has been in the works for over twenty years.

Be sure to watch for more sloth and luxury as energy prices fall. Just because people know about the Roman Empire’s fall doesn’t mean we’re immune to human nature- and history repeating itself over and over again.

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