turn heat into electricity

[Rematog]

But the cost of running it is a very important question.

What if you could make power with only the power of your mind… no fuel, no capital…free power!

If 5 people, without requiring any capital equipmemt, no parts, no fuel, nothing but the power of their minds, could stare at a transmission line and make 5 MW appear…..

It would not be cheap power if they were paid a good union wage.

1880 hr/yr x 5 MW = 9,400 MW- hr/yr (52 weeks, less 3 weeks vacation and 10 days of holidays x 40 hr/wk = 1880 hr/yr productive time… (gee, what, no coffee breaks)

Base pay $25/hr x 1.5 (employment taxs, workers comp, fringes, etc) x 2080 (40 hr/wk, 52 wk/yr) = $78,000/person/yr x 5 persons = $390,000 / yr

$/ MW-hrs = $390,000 / 9,400 MW-hr = $41.50 / MW-hr.

This is about what the cost is to product power at a coal fired plant, including coal and capital cost.

So men staring at wires is not an option…..

[belbear]

So if I got things right, the X-ray converter would have to be many layers of p-n junctions that work like a stack of highly transparent solar cells on top of each other.
But the concern is that the energetic X-rays themselves would be destroying the delicate layered structure by breaking important chemical bonds, shorting out the junctions and rendering the expensive device useless after a short time of exposure?

But our hopes are in the fact that X_ray conversion is such a novel field of research that we cannot yet rely on existing knowledge to either confirm or deny its feasability.

[Brian H]

Rematog wrote: But the cost of running it is a very important question.

What if you could make power with only the power of your mind… no fuel, no capital…free power!

If 5 people, without requiring any capital equipmemt, no parts, no fuel, nothing but the power of their minds, could stare at a transmission line and make 5 MW appear…..

It would not be cheap power if they were paid a good union wage.

1880 hr/yr x 5 MW = 9,400 MW- hr/yr (52 weeks, less 3 weeks vacation and 10 days of holidays x 40 hr/wk = 1880 hr/yr productive time… (gee, what, no coffee breaks)

Base pay $25/hr x 1.5 (employment taxs, workers comp, fringes, etc) x 2080 (40 hr/wk, 52 wk/yr) = $78,000/person/yr x 5 persons = $390,000 / yr

$/ MW-hrs = $390,000 / 9,400 MW-hr = $41.50 / MW-hr.

This is about what the cost is to product power at a coal fired plant, including coal and capital cost.

So men staring at wires is not an option…..

So? The output of the plant is potable water, so the relevant units to consider are liters or gallons per year, not MW. The power is just an input cost for the desalination plant.

[Rematog]

So literal….

The point is that the cost of O&M;can, in some cases, be the deciding fractor in the economics of a proposal.

[Aeronaut]

Rematog wrote: So literal….

The point is that the cost of O&M;can, in some cases, be the deciding fractor in the economics of a proposal.

Where do I get my Union card?

Brian, we can beat the scaling challenge by not scaling A plant. Rather, a few FF plants along the coasts of Africa, along with some new(?) transmission lines, could power thousands of these desalination plants and entirely transform that continent. Solving the local security situations may be more complex…

[Rematog]

“Local security situations may be more complex…” Understatement….

Union Card… there is plenty of good work available for Boilermakers, Ironworkers, Pipefitters, Electricians, etc. Go to a good trade school, then start talking to construction companies and union halls about apprenticeship programs. But, you have to be willing and able to:

1) Go to where the work is (you may spend a lot of time living out of a hotel or trailer, far from home, this is called “booming” or being a “boomer”)
2) Show up on time
3) Show up ready to work (clean and sober)
4) Work when you get there.

Sounds easy, but suprisingly, there is a shortage of skilled craftsmen in this country (USA).

[HermannH]

Rematog wrote: But the cost of running it is a very important question.

What if you could make power with only the power of your mind… no fuel, no capital…free power!

If 5 people, without requiring any capital equipmemt, no parts, no fuel, nothing but the power of their minds, could stare at a transmission line and make 5 MW appear…..

It would not be cheap power if they were paid a good union wage.

I love this thought experiment and the surprising conclusion!

A couple of hundred years ago most of our energy needs were provided by humans and some horses and oxen at a rate of far less than 1 kW. Today a rate of 1 MW is barely competitive.

We have come a long way, both in ways of producing cheap energy and also in our rapidly increasing thirst for energy.

[Rematog]

It also points out the effects of economies of scale.

The plant I work at has a total capacity of 1725 MW. We have about 200 full time employees, or over 8 MW per employee. So, if FF is in 5 MW blocks, you could have about 1/2 of an employee per block for the same staffing levels.

This would be challenging for a site with a well set up operations and maintenance staff. If it had to be done with remotely, where a crew has to drive out to check on any problem, O&M;labor may be the limiting factor for power cost.

[Brian H]

Rematog wrote: It also points out the effects of economies of scale.

The plant I work at has a total capacity of 1725 MW. We have about 200 full time employees, or over 8 MW per employee. So, if FF is in 5 MW blocks, you could have about 1/2 of an employee per block for the same staffing levels.

This would be challenging for a site with a well set up operations and maintenance staff. If it had to be done with remotely, where a crew has to drive out to check on any problem, O&M;labor may be the limiting factor for power cost.

5 MW is not an FF “block”, it’s one unit. They are intended to be serviced remotely, perhaps 3-10 serviced by about 3 people, say an engineer and 2 technicians. So that would be ~20MW/3 people = 6.7 MW/person, or 8.2 if it’s 5 generators. And 16.7 MW/person if it’s 10 generators. Etc.

[Rematog]

Engineers?

They don’t send engineers out on routine maintence calls…we are too useful in the office producing budget reports.

[Aeronaut]

Obama says he wants 2 things besides the healthcare bill-

1. Lotsa jobs (careers preferred)
2. Clean energy

So we may have a new scenario possible where the cost of a kwh never gets below 6 cents, but good careers in energy production and distribution are plentiful. That’s still quite an improvement over the 9.3 cents a kwhr currently costs me.

[Brian H]

Aeronaut wrote: Obama says he wants 2 things besides the healthcare bill-

1. Lotsa jobs (careers preferred)
2. Clean energy

So we may have a new scenario possible where the cost of a kwh never gets below 6 cents, but good careers in energy production and distribution are plentiful. That’s still quite an improvement over the 9.3 cents a kwhr currently costs me.

Words fail me.

[Aeronaut]

Brian H wrote:

Obama says he wants 2 things besides the healthcare bill-

1. Lotsa jobs (careers preferred)
2. Clean energy

So we may have a new scenario possible where the cost of a kwh never gets below 6 cents, but good careers in energy production and distribution are plentiful. That’s still quite an improvement over the 9.3 cents a kwhr currently costs me.

Words fail me.

Now I’m amazed!

As long as you rely on scientific advantage as a closed logic system, you’re going to be a voice in the wilderness, imho. The real challenges to deploying working FF power modules and plants is not so much scientific as it is political and educating the general public. The faster you want to bring this about in an honest economy, the more dollars it’s going to cost. It should also be less threatening and more lucrative to the existing ‘energy’ companies to get the machine properly lubed.

Boss: Richard J. Daley of Chicago By Mike Royko details Daley Sr.’s patronage jobs machine politics in old Chicago. Obama’s stomping grounds, btw.

We also need to assume that even though FF operation could be taught on the job, it’s going to require at least a certificate from the local community college. That curriculum doesn’t yet exist, and it will most likely be government funded plus have at least a 1 year lag time to get certified O&M;people to the field.

[Rematog]

Lot’s of jobs, yes

Based on total US electrical generation capacity of 1,032,000 MW (Jan, 2009 per Energy Information Administration figures), you would need 206,400 FF power modules of 5 MW capacity to equal this. For your 3 man crew to spend 1 day per month at each FF module, they could deal with no more then 20 modules, so you would need 10,320 crews, each with an engineer, this does not include higher level engineers (managers, etc).

To put this into perspective, the plant I work at has a rated capacity of 1725 MW and we have 7 line engineers. For the FF modules of the same capacity you would need 17.25 engineers at the rate your suggesting. (1 engineer per 20 modules x 5 MW = 1 per 100 MW)

You’d also need to train/re-train 20,640 maintenance personnel.

But that’s for today’s capacity. I’d guestimate you’d need to at least double that to allow for load growth in twenty years (that is only a roughly 3.5% annual growth rate). Ok, maybe triple that (5.6% growth). Remember, cheap power, electric cars, heating and process heat switching to electrical power from oil and gas…..

By the way, I’d guess the maintenance crew could be twice as productive if you centralized the FF modules. As the cost of power with FF is going to be more dependant on the Operating and Maintenance cost and less on the capital (and have almost no fuel cost), this alone would drive some level of centralization, other factors aside.

[Tulse]

Shouldn’t FF modules be much simpler than most other power generation technologies? In other words, will one need as many staff to oversee FF modules? There are very few moving parts (primarily those involved in fuel insertion and the vacuum pump). Unless there is a need for complex waste heat extraction gear, FF modules seem very straightforward compared to boiling water plants.

[Author]

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