Hyperion Power Module – small sealed 25MW fission reactor

[Aeronaut]

Not bad except for the choice of fuel. :smirk:

I agree about military tech schools being able to train operators and supervisors. And at least the Navy already trains fission reactor people. Maybe the other branches do, too. In fact, I can see a lot of former torpedomen and missile techs servicing FF installations, since my core sketches resemble torpedoes. And like Hyperion, a quick swap on-site service cycle services cores at a depot to minimize downtime and maximize standards compliance.

[Brian H]

hercdriver wrote:

What makes you believe military bases are exempt from such licensing? Federal property still falls under the EPA and NRC regulations that govern nuclear power plant placement. Only a place specifically designed for nuclear testing or similar use would be regulated differently. You should see what it takes to build a hangar on a base (proving you will capture and properly dispose of every drop of POL is an expensive prospect). The only difference I can see is that a base or piece of federal property large enough wouldn’t need to have state permission to build the plant. Private enterprise also has a lot of hurdles to overcome if placed on federal land. If I were building a new power plant I would look for a sympathetic state and build it on state owned land, not federal land.

Yeah, there’s a category problem here of course; since FF does not fall into any previous model, conforming to regs designed for existing plant is a total PITA.

But the cost advantage pressure presented by FF is sufficient to light a fire under the de-regulators, I think. Bottom line, no one (no state, no jurisdiction) could AFFORD to hold up and hold off FF deployment. It would be handing huge competitive advantage to first-movers.

There’s another possibility, of course. With the rush to write laws and regs favoring ijit “green” projects, it’s possible that FF could qualify for that kind of by-pass, and be home free. The irony would be that its existence would economically obliterate all Greenie alternatives.

An example of the kind of process I’m talking about is the saga of the TeslaMotors Roadster, the first and only highway-capable pure BEV (125 mph, 240 mi. range). Calif. dicked around with its “offset” allowances after the Roadster became a real possibility, apparently under industry pressure not to show up their lame hybrid models too badly. In the end, there is a $7500 federal discount/rebate available for purchasers, and many states have very favorable tax, licensing, parking and other programs, so there’s now competition between jurisdictions. The situation in Europe is even more extreme; in some cases all sales taxes (up to 60% of sticker price) are waived, and pure EVs get free parking and charge access in lots and streets across the country. Other states have lagged and aren’t doing much at all but the pressure is on, big time!

FF, btw, will be a magical match with EV use and cost-of-ownership. Per mile cost is already down around 2¢ (US & Canada) or 5¢ (EU); FF could drop that to under 1¢. (~8 moving parts; maintenance is negligible. Even brakes rarely need replacing because mostly engine braking/energy recovery is used down to about the 5 mph range.) The result is that the upcoming $50K ‘Model S’ (7 passengers, 130 mph, 150-300 mi. range) will carry and operate for about the same monthly cost as a $30,000 gasser. Some are whining that running any significant % of the world’s / country’s autos on electricity would overwhelm the grid. Distributed FF power, anyone? 😆 I can see dedicated FF auto-charging plants sprouting everywhere … Maybe the service staff could do double-duty with BEVs and the generators. Neither requires much manpower or workdays per year per unit. It would be a natural!

[Tulse]

The problem with pure BEV isn’t the cost of electricity, it is the charging time and range. While cheap power will always make things better, it is not the main hurdle to getting practical BEVs.

[Brian H]

Tulse wrote: The problem with pure BEV isn’t the cost of electricity, it is the charging time and range. While cheap power will always make things better, it is not the main hurdle to getting practical BEVs.

For 95% of all use and users, overnight plug-in is plenty to more than refill the charge used during the day. As for long trips, within a few years energy densities of batteries will multiply 5-10X, giving 1-3,000 mile range. Charging time will drop, too, as the new designs take power much more efficiently.

“Range anxiety” is an issue, but it won’t interfere with the market for some time; demand will outstrip supply for quite a while, I think. In Europe, where distances are shorter and prices are much higher for gasoline/diesel and car taxes are huge, EV has even more appeal.

[Tulse]

It appears Hyperion has developed a joint venture with a Chinese manufacturing company. I’m guessing that this move may help them get around US regulatory issues — their Asian partner can assist them in cranking out modules for the developing world.

[Brian H]

Tulse wrote: It appears Hyperion has developed a joint venture with a Chinese manufacturing company. I’m guessing that this move may help them get around US regulatory issues — their Asian partner can assist them in cranking out modules for the developing world.

At $50 million per 25MW electric output, it is only 20-40X as expensive as FF.
http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/product-purch.html

[Tulse]

Brian H wrote: At $50 million per 25MW electric output, it is only 20-40X as expensive as FF.

It’s also arguably far farther along to a commercial product, and the technological issues are not as fundamental. It’s pricing is also less speculative than for FF. Don’t get me wrong, I have every hope that LPP succeeds, and that it has a product soon. But in the competitive space, Hyperion is a similarly-sized solution, and will be to market much more quickly. Of course, if FF actually proves itself, the competitive space will change very rapidly — it is hard to imagine any other technology being able to compete if LPP (and/or some of the other aneutronic fusion companies) produce a working fusion generator.

[Aeronaut]

Tulse wrote:

At $50 million per 25MW electric output, it is only 20-40X as expensive as FF.

It’s also arguably far farther along to a commercial product, and the technological issues are not as fundamental. It’s pricing is also less speculative than for FF. Don’t get me wrong, I have every hope that LPP succeeds, and that it has a product soon. But in the competitive space, Hyperion is a similarly-sized solution, and will be to market much more quickly. Of course, if FF actually proves itself, the competitive space will change very rapidly — it is hard to imagine any other technology being able to compete if LPP (and/or some of the other aneutronic fusion companies) produce a working fusion generator.

Think nuclear waste proliferation, and contrast that with all the groups who allegedly performed (and charged for) doing due diligence to fund Hyperion development. There sure are going to be a lot of embarrassed “experts” & “leaders” if FF delivers as promised.

[Tulse]

Aeronaut wrote: There sure are going to be a lot of embarrassed “experts” & “leaders” if FF delivers as promised.

That’s true in general — just think of the poor folks who demanded billions for ITER and NIF!

Truly, if FF delivers, it will be a revolution.

[Breakable]

Tulse wrote:

There sure are going to be a lot of embarrassed “experts” & “leaders” if FF delivers as promised.

That’s true in general — just think of the poor folks who demanded billions for ITER and NIF!

Truly, if FF delivers, it will be a revolution.
From scientific point of view ITER and NIF are still going to make sense. The energy part of them is probably just to sell the science part to illiterate bureaucrats.

[Tulse]

I guess NIF makes sense because one of its main functions (which isn’t discussed that much publicly) is testing related to nuclear weapons. I don’t know that much about ITER’s functions beyond being a step towards commercial fusion, which would be obviated by the success of FF.

[Breakable]

I think ITER’s purpose is to learn more about plasma dynamics, although I am not an expert.

[Brian H]

Breakable wrote: I think ITER’s purpose is to learn more about plasma dynamics, although I am not an expert.

Yeah, though it has long seemed to me that they are playing in the “sour spot” between astronomical plasmas and micro-plasmas (like FF’s). Plasma doesn’t like being constrained in those intermediate (human-scale) spaces. 😆

[Brian H]

Tulse wrote:

At $50 million per 25MW electric output, it is only 20-40X as expensive as FF.

… But in the competitive space, Hyperion is a similarly-sized solution, and will be to market much more quickly.
…

The size of the reactor core is about a refrigerator’s, but the associated Carnot-steam-cycle stuff is still pretty massive:
http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/product.html

And I’m not sure it will be “much” more quickly. I doubt any will have been installed before 2-3 years, and the first ones will be hand-assembled. It will take some time to set up an industrial manufacturing process. The company estimates a potential installation base potential of about 4,000 for this first module design. It would likely be about 10 years, earliest, before that would be possible. By that time, FF will be up and running. There may still be niches for Hyperion-type solutions (that the unit would be sealed for its life cycle, not requiring refueling or servicing would be one definite advantage), but as for a mass-market replacement for general electrical power services, it doesn’t even rank as a speck on a fly on the elephant’s butt. :cheese: IMO

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[Aeronaut]

NIF makes sense to develop leading-edge laser technology, and ITER’s real justification is to develop materials that can withstand the temperatures and neutron fluxes of a D-T fusion reaction. Now, why these materials really need to be developed only makes sense to me as a way to keep people who know better gainfully employed protecting the status quo by presenting the illusion that fusion is too difficult and expensive for private companies to achieve.

[Author]

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