Is FF competitive

[break]

It isn’t a secret there are other fusion attempts then focus fusion.

I don’t think of tokamak or NIF. I think of General Fusion, Helion Energy and Polywell.

What do you think about these concepts.

If FF and some of the concepts above become feasible, can FF ( with its cathode erosion) be competitive? If more then one of these concepts are working what is your favorite?

[Tulse]

I think that cathode erosion is likely to be much less of a problem than ensuring that 200 pneumatic pistons all fire in with nanosecond precision continually day after day, as in the case of GF.

[dennisp]

Rooting for all of them of course!

My favorite is FF because the costs are so low. A reactor for the price of a house, electricity an order of magnitude cheaper than today. I’d expect commercial rollout to happen very quickly once it’s available. Also of course, aneutronic fusion is an advantage over some competitors. Seems like I read something suggesting that cathode erosion wouldn’t be a terrible problem with the right materials. A commercial reactor would probably make them easily replaceable.

Polywell is best for large reactors, can also do aneutronic, and at scale could get really cheap as well.

General Fusion doesn’t do aneutronic but the sheer ballsiness of their steampunk approach appeals to me. They’ve got two pistons firing with the precision they need, and rather than build the full device right now they’re planning experiments with explosives. Making it reliable might be a challenge, but if it’s the first to get working fusion I’d expect a lot of money to go towards solving that.

Helion looks interesting but doesn’t currently have the funding they need. Tri-Alpha is somewhat similar and has lots of money, but is very secretive.

FF and Polywell could both make really good launch rockets. GF, not so much. A cheap path to space would pretty much solve our remaining resource issues.

FF is the only one that gives frequent, detailed news on their progress, which definitely makes them the most fun to follow!

[annodomini2]

Tulse wrote: I think that cathode erosion is likely to be much less of a problem than ensuring that 200 pneumatic pistons all fire in with nanosecond precision continually day after day, as in the case of GF.

I’m curious if the General fusion reaction creates a reverse pressure wave?

[Impaler]

From my perspective their are three tiers of fusion ‘concepts’ that are distinguished not by their chance of technical success near or short term but rather by their cost range as a mature technology.

A good comparison might be the Steam engine, Internal combustion engine and Jet Turbine engine, they all do basically the same thing, turn hydrocarbons into rotary motion, but the power-2-weight ratios are such that their is virtually no overlap. The crudest simplest Internal combustion engine has more power density then any Steam engine, and likewise the simplest Jet turbine blows away the best Internal combustion engine. The tokamak and Inertial confinement systems are like Steam Engines, they will at best be very expensive and require obscene capitol investments. The other ‘indie’ concepts like poly-well, General Fusion etc are more like Internal combustion engines, they could undercut the price of the Steam engine level technology, but Focus Fusion stands alone as the Jet turbine of Fusion concept because it alone is not a heat engine which means it can undercut everything else on price and capitol cost once mature.

This is important because it means LPP would still have a viable business model developing FF if the tomorrow aliens descended from the sky and told humans exactly how to make a tokamak or Inertial confinement system that would yield net energy well into the optimistic range of what their developers hope for. Because that would effectively be like having a ‘good’ turn of the century steam engine their would be plenty of room to undercut and supplant it with a better technology. In fact I would expect interest and investment to INCREASE into all alternative fusion concepts, once their is one type of viable fusion it will stimulate the demand for Cheaper fusion. The reverse is not the case though, if FF or any of those middle tier alternatives comes to market first the tokomak folks are just Screwed as their concept can never hope to be competitive in any way, but I wouldn’t be surprised if shear inertia carries them years further.

[Rezwan]

@dennisp – me too! (Rooting for all of them)

@Impaler – well put!

[zapkitty]

Impaler wrote: … The other ‘indie’ concepts like poly-well, General Fusion etc are more like Internal combustion engines, they could undercut the price of the Steam engine level technology, but Focus Fusion stands alone as the Jet turbine of Fusion concept because it alone is not a heat engine which means it can undercut everything else on price and capitol cost once mature.

… errrr… I think your analogy needs a little work in places… for one thing both Polywell and Tri-Alpha are also aneutronic concepts like Focus Fusion. They also do not boil water and do not require expensive steam turbines 🙂

Focus Fusion does have inherent advantages in minimum size and cost but the comparisons to other aneutronic systems are not as lopsided as that particular analogy would suggest…

[Rezwan]

zapkitty wrote: …both Polywell and Tri-Alpha are also aneutronic concepts like Focus Fusion. They also do not boil water and do not require expensive steam turbines 🙂

Per a Los Alamos physicist:

…the one question I would have about aneutronic solutions…..is, that IF they work conceptually in an aneutronic way, then how much easier would they be with DT (which is essentially where TriAlpha has been going the last few years).

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