heaviest element plasmoid fusion?

[meemoe_uk]

What are the theoretical fusion limits of plasmoids according to Lerner’s model? Is there a heaviest element-element fusion beyond which the model says micro plasmoids can’t create the minimum necessary high energy environment?

e.g. With all the sulphur from Earth volcanos, on Io’s surface, and the old rumour of sulphur smell after a strong thunder storm, it’s reasonable to conjecture electricity is fusing oxygen-oxygen. Is it via plasmoids though?

That 5th power scaling formula… I’d be surprised if p-B11 is the theoretical heavy element limit of micro plasmoid fusion.

[meemoe_uk]

119 views and no replys. this forum should be a beehive of activity, but most of the time its a ghostly echoy cathedral. i don’t get it. Am I the only one interested in plasma science these days? Should I apply for the CERN and ITER budgets to be sent to my address?

Rant aside, looks like I’ll have to answer my own question.

Ok, so Eric said the plasmoid magnetic field is the 5th power of the charge of the matter in the plasmoid.
So far FoFu has worked with ionized deuterium. which has a charge of 1, and has resulted in a plasmoid temperature of 1.8 Giga K

now that George Gamow said that the temperature required for fusion between elements is proportional to something like half to 1 power of the product of charge of the ionized elements.

So I think its a no brainer. 5th power beats 1 power easy. Even if we say the product term in Gamow’s equation means the power is effectively 2, then still 5 >> 2. I don’t know the proportion between plasmoid magnetic field and plasmoid temperature but I’m guessing its higher than 2/5 power. Whatever the element, it will create a plasmoid with a magnetic field and temperature high enough to enable its own nuclear fusion.

therefore, by Eric’s model, all elements can be fused by their own micro plasmoids, just need a lightning bolt. Natural nucleo synthesis for the entire periodic table has been fundamentally solved, and DPFs will give us practical means of demonstration of fusion of any 2 elements.

[Francisl]

meemoe_uk wrote: 119 views and no replys. this forum should be a beehive of activity, but most of the time its a ghostly echoy cathedral. i don’t get it. Am I the only one interested in plasma science these days? Should I apply for the CERN and ITER budgets to be sent to my address?

There are a lot of people who are interested in fusion but they may not feel comfortable in commenting about the technical aspects.

meemoe_uk wrote: therefore, by Eric’s model, all elements can be fused by their own micro plasmoids, just need a lightning bolt. Natural nucleo synthesis for the entire periodic table has been fundamentally solved, and DPFs will give us practical means of demonstration of fusion of any 2 elements.

Given enough energy, any elements can be combined but it is only practical to combine elements that will yield enough surplus energy. See this explanation.

[meemoe_uk]

>Given enough energy, any elements can be combined but it is only practical to combine elements that will yield enough surplus energy.

I know. But that doesn’t really answer my question.

>What are the theoretical fusion limits of plasmoids according to Lerner’s model?

I reckon plasmoids can fuse any 2 atoms, because 5th power in plasmoid strength will always be higher than 2nd power required to overcome electrostatic repulsion in the gamow equation. Even if the reaction is endo-energetic. Therefore electric discharges can create all of the periodic table.

In nature the excess energy gained from fusing Iron 56 or small atoms is partly used to power the creation of heavier nuclei, those where their creation takes more energy than they produce.

[Lerner]

You’re ignoring two things. First the x-ray emission goes up as the charge of the ions squared–that cools the plasma. Second, the reaction rate and fusion power generated at a given temperature goes down rapidly for heavier elements. So pB11 is best. Stars can fuse heavier elements because they are so large the x-rays can’t escape the core. They also take billions of years to burn the fuel–not ns as in the DPF.

[meemoe_uk]

> First the x-ray emission goes up as the charge of the ions squared—that cools the plasma

I thought you said the quantum magnetic effect fixes that, for pB11 at least. Doesn’t this effect also scale for higher magnetic fields?

>Second, the reaction rate and fusion power generated at a given temperature goes down rapidly for heavier elements.

Yes, by nuclear theory alone, fusion into iron 56 is the highest possible atom from which fusion is exothermic*. Does plasmoid theory further reduce the size of largest possible exothermic atom fusion ? e.g. would it be impossible to extract energy from silicon-helium fusion via plasmoids?

Sure, I don’t dispute pB11 is an optimal fusion fuel. I’m looking to explain some of the Earth’s composition by plasmoid fusion by subterranean electric discharge, after the Earth formed. Like all this sulphur we see around. I think your plasmoid theory could explain sulphur as a product of oxygen oxygen plasmoid induced fusion, or perhaps cumulative helium fusions, as an ongoing process within the Earth, and on Io.
It may also explain the distribution of some other elements in the Earth’s crust. Elements that require endo-thermic fusion will be less abundant in the crust.

A key question I want to ask : accepting that several detrimental factors become significant for large atom fusion by plasmoids making them endothermic and useless for the purpose of power generation; if enough energy was input into an attempt to fuse large ions ( e.g. 2 iron atoms ) by plasmoid, just to see if it could be done, would the plasmoid magnetic field still scale to the 5th power and create a presumably mega strong field, regardless of any other shortcomings in the goal of fusion?
thanks very much if you answer this question!

(* actually that might not be true. the binding energy per nucleon is so low for small ions, perhaps the fusion of very small atoms into any large atom, including those greater than iron would be exothermic, but certainly not optimal )

[meemoe_uk]

ah well. I suppose I can have a go at answering one of my own questions using the meemoe formula ( a simplified version of plasmoid physics models )
> How strong will the electric field of a collapsing proton boron plasmoid be?

So we’ve got the electric field is about 400 G V/m for deuterium fuel which has an average charge of 1. pB-11 has an average charge of (1+5)/2 = 3. Given that plasmoid electromagnetic fields get stronger by the 5th power of charge of the fusion ions, we have the formula E = k*e^5, where E is the resultant electric field, e is the average charge of the fusion ions, and k is a constant. We have values ( E=400GeV/m,e=1), so k=400G. So for pB-11, e=3, so by the formula, E = 400G * 3^5 = 97 T V/m

Did the meemoe formula get it right?

[Francisl]

Sure, I don’t dispute pB11 is an optimal fusion fuel. I’m looking to explain some of the Earth’s composition by plasmoid fusion by subterranean electric discharge, after the Earth formed. Like all this sulphur we see around. I think your plasmoid theory could explain sulphur as a product of oxygen oxygen plasmoid induced fusion, or perhaps cumulative helium fusions, as an ongoing process within the Earth, and on Io.
It may also explain the distribution of some other elements in the Earth’s crust. Elements that require endo-thermic fusion will be less abundant in the crust.

Is there some part of the earth’s composition that you think is out of balance compared to normal planetary formation?

So we’ve got the electric field is about 400 GeV/m for deuterium fuel which has an average charge of 1. pB-11 has an average charge of (1+5)/2 = 3. Given that plasmoid electromagnetic fields get stronger by the 5th power of charge of the fusion ions, we have the formula E = k*e^5, where E is the resultant electric field, e is the average charge of the fusion ions, and k is a constant. We have values ( E=400GeV/m,e=1), so k=400G. So for pB-11, e=3, so by the formula, E = 400G * 3^5 = 97 TeV/m

Did the meemoe formula get it right?

Particle accelerators are normally used to provide this much energy. You can try to find their results to check your calculations.
I think that based on the energy requirements that it would be unlikely that fusion is taking place through natural reactions on earth. It is much more likely that natural radioactive decay and cosmic bombardment could cause some fission of heavier elements to lighter ones. Sufficient neutron activation can cause the decay of any element. By that logic the largest isotope variations should occur around naturally radioactive areas.

[meemoe_uk]

>Is there some part of the earth’s composition that you think is out of balance compared to normal planetary formation?

No.

I think that based on the energy requirements that it would be unlikely that fusion is taking place through natural reactions on earth.

Do you think its possible electric discharges occur within the Earth? With electric discharges, there is a possibility of plasmoids, which will concentrate energy enough for fusion.

[Francisl]

Do you think its possible electric discharges occur within the Earth? With electric discharges, there is a possibility of plasmoids, which will concentrate energy enough for fusion.

I am not familiar with the research on this so I will give my opinion. There are varying levels of conductivity ranging from desert surfaces, liquid bodies and the molten core. Theory says that the earth’s magnetic field arises from the interaction of rotation, internal electrical currents and other forces. The normally occurring electrical currents are so diffuse that plasmoids probably don’t exist. Extraordinary events like earthquakes can release concentrated energy through piezoelectric effects by friction and the breaking of rocks. Plasmoids might occur then but I don’t know how it could be proven.
The most concentrated natural electrical currents that I know of are lightning strikes. I’ve read that very energetic lightning is present around some erupting volcanoes. There can be high energy radiation and interesting chemical reactions but I am not aware of anyone suggesting that nuclear reactions happen.

[meemoe_uk]

> Theory says that the earth’s magnetic field arises from the interaction of rotation, internal electrical currents and other forces. The normally occurring electrical currents are so diffuse that plasmoids probably don’t exist.

How do you know? Do you have some device that can see the electric discharges going on 1000km underground?

>Extraordinary events like earthquakes
Over the Earth, earthquakes are a common every day occurrence.

The most concentrated natural electrical currents that I know of are lightning strikes…. I am not aware of anyone suggesting that nuclear reactions happen.

But you should think its possible. We know lightning creates macro plasmoids ( ball lightning ). This was known without any modern scientific study at all. Whats to stop smaller, and indeed, micro plasmoids from forming from lightning?
The idea is not mine. Somewhere I’ve read it. Someone else said that after powerful electric storms in the tropics, there is a rotten egg smell, suggesting the oxygen in the air has fused into sulphur. Hopefully I can go the tropics myself and smell the air after an electric storm. In the uk you can only smell the water and a tiny bit of ozone.

[Jan Hemmer]

meemoe_uk, never thought this would happen!

Back in the eighties I had the same idea, the fusion of 2 oxygen into a sulphur nucleus as the energy source of ball lightning.
I remember also corresponding about it with a few people in the UK.
Maybe after all this time the meme spread somehow.
The problem with fusion like that, i was told by experts in the field, is the fact that when two nuclei of the same mass merge into one, the result is momentum = zero.
That means there is no resulting particle that can take all the released energy, in other words no kinetic energy is involved.
All the mass-energy has to be released in the form of EM radiation.
Now I was led to this oxygen-sulphur fusion idea by an article in Nature by AJF. Blair who described an old case of Ball Lightning in a church, when during the presence of the BL it was impossible to ring the bells.
From the energies involved in that case he could calculate the magnetic field required to prevent the bells from swinging.
To me doing that made a lot of sense because a strong magnetic field is the only known force that can cause the erratic behavior often reported in BL cases.
However extending that calculation to the energy of the magnetic field of Blair’s BL (= magnetic pressure x volume) gave such a startling figure that it only could be caused by nuclear processes.
So my hypothesis was and still is, that the mass energy released was in the form of the energy of a static magnetic field.
And also caused by a strong initiating magnetic field of a lightning current, resulting in a magnetic chain reaction so to speak!
Unfortunately this concept appeared to be too much outside the trodden paths to be taken seriously.
But I keep wondering….

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