The Focus Fusion Society Forums Focus Fusion Cafe How early historically could FF have been accomplished?

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  • #953
    Tulse
    Participant

    (I think there was thread on this topic a while back — if someone can point me to that discussion, this one can be deleted.)

    One thing that greatly impresses me about DPF is how ultimately simple it is from an engineering perspective: the basic components are just a vacuum chamber, some electrodes, some capacitors, and some fuel. This, along with an interest in the steampunk genre, leads me to wonder how early historically it would have been possible to create a DPF device. At what point in history was all the technology available for the device itself? I don’t include all the appropriate testing apparatus, just the device. Would, for example, a Victorian-era lab been able to create one, at least in principle?

    #8319
    Aeronaut
    Participant

    Good question, Tulse. I don’t remember seeing a similar thread. I’d guess that the capacitor would be the limiting factor. From Google:

    Electrolytic capacitor – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The ancestor of the modern electrolytic capacitor was patented by Julius Lilienfeld in 1926. Lilienfeld’s design resembled that of a silver mica capacitor, …
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolytic_capacitor

    #8324
    Breakable
    Keymaster

    In October 1745, Ewald Georg von Kleist of Pomerania in Germany found that charge could be stored by connecting a high voltage electrostatic generator by a wire to a volume of water in a hand-held glass jar

    So you just need a bigger jar.

    #8326
    jamesr
    Participant

    If you just go back as far as when Filioppov (1961-62) & Mather (1964) came up with the DPF, then if more effort was made into researching them at the time would have meant when progress in understanding plasma phenomena in general was made in the 70s then the DPF would have been better placed to attract funding alongside tokamak projects built in the 80s.

    Someone could have come up with the DPF concept before Filioppov & Mather, but not much before. I would say the earliest one could have been built would be maybe 10 years before, but not much more than that – say 1950.

    Having said that, I think the whole range of technologies needed to get power from fusion in a DPF mean it could not have been done much before where we are today, maybe 10-15years ago at best.

    #8330
    Tulse
    Participant

    jamesr, which technologies are you thinking of that would limit actual creation of a DPF device? Again, I’m not thinking of what would be needed to hook it up to the grid, or even to monitor/test it properly, but what technologies are needed to build it?

    Or, put another way, if one had the appropriate knowledge and were sent back in time, how far back could one go and still make a working DPF using readily-available materials and techniques?

    (I think a very interesting steampunk world would be one in which DPF were discovered in the Victorian Era — such discovery would offer at least some justification for the kinds of devices typically seen in the genre.)

    #8331
    jamesr
    Participant

    If you just take for example the turbomolecular pump, developed in 1958. Or from the nuclear viewpoint the various collision cross sections for different elements worked on as a result of the development of the H-Bomb.

    It wasn’t until 1941 when Kolmogorov first developed his theories of turbulence, that were later applied to magnetic plasmas that any kind of hypotheses of how macroscopic forces cascaded the energy transport down to smaller scales was considered.

    #8333
    Aeronaut
    Participant

    What would Tesla have done? At what points were the machine tool trade and understanding of the quasar sufficient to build one? Could it have been physically built in Maxwell’s day?

    #8334
    vansig
    Participant

    boron trifluoride is a precursor to the boranes.

    “Boron trifluoride was discovered in 1808 by Joseph Louis Gay-Lussac and Louis Jacques Thénard, who were trying to isolate “fluoric acid” (i.e. hydrofluoric acid) by combining calcium fluoride with vitrified boric acid; the resulting vapours failed to etch glass, so they named it fluoboric gas.”

    capture of the exit beam is a significant step. the Rogowski coil is dated circa late 19th to early 20th century.

    The onion is completely new science, probably requiring photonic band gap semiconductors. In absense of this, a heat engine would convert energy.
    “The Tesla turbine is a bladeless centripetal flow turbine patented by Nikola Tesla in 1913.”

    #8336
    Brian H
    Participant

    Breakable wrote: In October 1745, Ewald Georg von Kleist of Pomerania in Germany found that charge could be stored by connecting a high voltage electrostatic generator by a wire to a volume of water in a hand-held glass jar

    So you just need a bigger jar.

    Switching and discharge within a few 10s of ns? I doooonn’t thang sew! :grrr: :bug:

    #8342
    vansig
    Participant

    Brian H wrote:

    In October 1745, Ewald Georg von Kleist of Pomerania in Germany found that charge could be stored by connecting a high voltage electrostatic generator by a wire to a volume of water in a hand-held glass jar

    So you just need a bigger jar.

    Switching and discharge within a few 10s of ns? I doooonn’t thang sew! :grrr: :bug:

    that depends on the size of the wire. if 50 ns is the needed rise time (= 1/2 wave, ie: 10MHz), and you can tolerate a .006 ohm resistance, the skin effect limits the wire dimensions (in copper, ρ = R·Area / length = 1.68×10^−8 Ω·m; skin depth= 20.5 μm @10MHz) to a length no more than 7.2 x the circumference.

    “The effect was first described in a paper by Horace Lamb in 1883 for the case of spherical conductors, and was generalised to conductors of any shape by Oliver Heaviside in 1885.”

    #8343
    vansig
    Participant

    “It was not until World War II, when sufficient resources were finally applied to finding the causes of electrolytic capacitor unreliability, that they started to become as reliable as they are today.”

    without electrolytic capacitors, a glass ceramic capacitor array, of 129uF @ 50 kV, would fit onto a spherical shell, 5m average radius and 1.5 m thick (assuming 100 plates, spaced 15mm apart). The reactor would be, easily, as big as a house.

    #8344
    zapkitty
    Participant

    vansig wrote:
    without electrolytic capacitors, a glass ceramic capacitor array, of 129uF @ 50 kV, would fit onto a spherical shell, 5m average radius and 1.5 m thick (assuming 100 plates, spaced 15mm apart). The reactor would be, easily, as big as a house.

    … but this would solve the caps lifespan issue, right? 🙂

    #8348
    Lerner
    Participant

    A DPF of the size needed certainly could not have been built in the 19th century. The speed and power of capacitors was not available. Lots and lots of engineering must be done to go from the idea of a capacitor to those that we are using right now. Same with other technologies. You could probably have explained a steam engine to an ancient Roman engineer but the Romans could not have built one. It takes a lot to have the tolerances and sealing that makes a steam piston actually work. (In historical fact the idea of the steam engine came centuries before the reality.)
    However, if adequate resources had gone into not only DPF but all of pulsed-power technology from the 1960’s on, development could have been vastly sped up. No doubt with that sort of broad-based program, we could have been where we are now 25 years ago. If you can imagine the US government making controlled fusion the sort of priority they made the H-bomb, maybe that would have been 35 years ago. But that would have required a very different political reality.

    #8349
    Brian H
    Participant

    Eric, could the switches have been made adequate then? That seems still to be a choke-point.

    #8353
    vansig
    Participant

    Brian H wrote: Eric, could the switches have been made adequate then? That seems still to be a choke-point.

    An electrical engineer suggested to me, to do away with the switches (and the capacitors, except for the first shot) and build a resonant circuit. The exit beam would then drive the next pulse, directly. zero-current-transition techniques generalize to the megawatts.

    http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=1248264
    http://www.researchgate.net/publication/34763176_Unified_zero-current-transition_techniques_for_high-power_three-phase_PWM_inverters_electronic_resource_

    zapkitty wrote:
    … but this would solve the caps lifespan issue, right? 🙂

    Yes. The more i think about it, the more it seems just like catching the energy from lightning.

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