The Focus Fusion Society › Forums › Focus Fusion Cafe › Blackbody losses
I linked to focus fusion and an engineer (Cyril) there raised the following question:
‘I don’t get it. How can you beat the blackbody radiative losses at 1800 million degrees Celsius to get net energy out of this? Even with theoretical plasma particle density and some clever low emissive material (say 0.01) this seems impossible. But there should be a simple calculation that shows you can do this. Where can I find this?’
Another poster replied:
‘I believe that there is not enough plasma to make a black body, that is, it is transparent to most frequencies of light. For example, visible light typically comes from electrons neutralizing ions or changing orbitals. Plasmas should be totally ionized, so this disappears. From the Wikipedia article on nuclear fusion:
“The ions undergoing fusion in many systems will essentially never occur alone but will be mixed with electrons that in aggregate neutralize the ions’ bulk electrical charge and form a plasma.
The electrons will generally have a temperature comparable to or
greater than that of the ions, so they will collide with the ions and
emit x-ray radiation of 10–30 keV energy (Bremsstrahlung). The Sun and stars are opaque to x-rays, but essentially any terrestrial fusion reactor will be optically thin for x-rays of this energy range.””
Cyril:
‘If the reactor is optically thin for x-rays, that just makes it worse; you have a huge entropy gradient wanting to equalize (similar to radiative heat transfer being stronger in a vacuum – it’s transparent to infrared so you have a steeper gradient). I realize the boron fusion radiation is much more energetic so would involve mostly more energetic photons than infrared ones. But I doubt you can get the reactor wall to be as reflecting to x-rays as you could make it reflective to infrared (where we know how to make it 98% reflecting, using gold coating). In general the more energetic the radiation the lower the efficiency of your reflection for any reflective surface (gamma rays for example, can’t be reflected well by any material). My question still stands. If you make something 1800 million degrees Celsius on earth, it doesn’t want to stay that hot. If you look at these sort of calculations you’ll quickly discover that they are exponential or logarithmic functions of the gradients. You’ll have to fight that first. Then you have to fight the other losses in the system (electricity conversion to heat, generating electricity back, etc.).’
I’d be grateful for input on stuff which is way above my head!
I’m interested. Is this an online discussion? If so, then can you post a link to it?
Thanks!
It sprawled across two sites:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/08/lawrenceville-plasma-physics-raising.html
And:
http://www.energyfromthorium.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3762&p=47147#p47147
I am trying to move the discussion here, and will post on those sites to that effect, but pstudier has now replied to Cyril on the thorium energy site:
‘Good points! Conventional fusion people generally assume that all the energy that escapes the plasma is adsorbed. So all these gradients, plus complex interactions between plasma and magnetic fields lead to instabilities. Conventional fusion people have been building tokamaks bigger and bigger for decades, and with each new size, they get hotter, denser plasmas and new instabilities. The Wikipedia article “Plasma stability” lists over 50 different types of instability. These novel fusion schemes, focus, polywell, etc, are orders of magnitudes from breakeven and have not even begun to start evaluating the instabilities. For example, the polywell people brag about detecting 3 neutrons.
There are good scaling arguments that say tokamaks will never be economical, based on the maximum power density allowed by radiation damage of the first wall, costs of the magnets, blanket, shielding, support structure, etc.
Fusion is easy, breakeven is horrendous, and economic is probably impossible.’
And sebtal to pstudier on NBF:
‘The flip side is you really don’t want heavy elements into your plasma (this is why fusion is so damned hard), because while fully ionizing low elements is viable, if you introduce iron etc. atoms, they don’t fully ionise, and the resultant line emission leads to radiative quench of the plasma.
One of the problems with MCF is that eventually,a magnetic surface intersects the wall, and heavy elements are introduced. One of the significant advances in the field was the invention of divertors and x-points so you could peel off a flux surface using a magnetic null point (this sounds really complicated in words: it’s just this http://www.google.com/imgres?u…, and have the plasma directed onto a material surface in a controlled way at a much greater distance (along the field line) from the core plasma preventing contamination.’
Here is what the New World Encyclopedia has to say:
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Bremsstrahlung losses in quasineutral, isotropic plasmas
The ions undergoing fusion in many systems will essentially never occur alone but will be mixed with electrons that in aggregate neutralize the ions’ bulk electrical charge and form a plasma. The electrons will generally have a temperature comparable to or greater than that of the ions, so they will collide with the ions and emit x-ray radiation of 10–30 keV energy (Bremsstrahlung). The sun and stars are opaque to x-rays, but essentially any terrestrial fusion reactor will be optically thin for x-rays of this energy range. X-rays are difficult to reflect but they are effectively absorbed (and converted into heat) in less than mm thickness of stainless steel (which is part of reactor shield). The ratio of fusion power produced to x-ray radiation lost to walls is an important figure of merit. This ratio is generally maximized at a much higher temperature than that which maximizes the power density (see the previous subsection). The following table shows the rough optimum temperature and the power ratio at that temperature for several reactions.fuel Ti (keV) Pfusion/PBremsstrahlung
D-T 50 140.0
D-D 500 2.9
D-3He 100 5.3
3He-3He 1000 0.72
p-6Li 800 0.21
p-11B 300 0.57The actual ratios of fusion to Bremsstrahlung power will likely be significantly lower for several reasons. For one, the calculation assumes that the energy of the fusion products is transmitted completely to the fuel ions, which then lose energy to the electrons by collisions, which in turn lose energy by Bremsstrahlung. However because the fusion products move much faster than the fuel ions, they will give up a significant fraction of their energy directly to the electrons. Secondly, the plasma is assumed to be composed purely of fuel ions. In practice, there will be a significant proportion of impurity ions, which will lower the ratio. In particular, the fusion products themselves must remain in the plasma until they have given up their energy, and will remain some time after that in any proposed confinement scheme. Finally, all channels of energy loss other than Bremsstrahlung have been neglected. The last two factors are related. On theoretical and experimental grounds, particle and energy confinement seem to be closely related. In a confinement scheme that does a good job of retaining energy, fusion products will build up. If the fusion products are efficiently ejected, then energy confinement will be poor, too.
The temperatures maximizing the fusion power compared to the Bremsstrahlung are in every case higher than the temperature that maximizes the power density and minimizes the required value of the fusion triple product. This will not change the optimum operating point for D-T very much because the Bremsstrahlung fraction is low, but it will push the other fuels into regimes where the power density relative to D-T is even lower and the required confinement even more difficult to achieve. [em]For D-D and D-3He, Bremsstrahlung losses will be a serious, possibly prohibitive problem. For 3He-3He, p-6Li and p-11B the Bremsstrahlung losses appear to make a fusion reactor using these fuels with a quasineutral, anisotropic plasma impossible. Some ways out of this dilemma are considered—and rejected—in “Fundamental limitations on plasma fusion systems not in thermodynamic equilibrium” by Todd Rider.[/em] This limitation does not apply to non-neutral and anisotropic plasmas; however, these have their own challenges to contend with.
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When I told Todd Rider (the expert mentioned above) that I wanted him to examine BSF, he Emailed me back that overcoming Bremsstrahlung losses might be the most difficult obsticle facing the developement of fusion power, and that my approach (BSF), which combines reflection (of transparent IR, UV, and light) with local absorption (of opaque x-rays), has the potential to succeed, but that he was too busy to update his article “Is There a Better Route to Fusion?” (FusionRoute.pdf), which is a critique of all the major approaches to fusion.
Hey Dave… have you read LLP’s writings on how the Quantum Magnetic Field effect is supposed to mitigate the losses to Brem? The X-rays are pretty significant with fusing just isotopes of hydrogen, but when you start trying to fuse Boron, things get really difficult. Boron has 5 times the charge of hydrogen and about 25 times the effect of braking the electrons (bremmstralung) which cools the plasma. But the QMF should kick in if the field strength gets high enough.
A lot of the objections you’ve noted don’t quite apply to pulsed power devices like Focus Fusion. Certainly to a tokamak, and somewhat still in a polywell. But LLP’s approach has the benefit of being only a couple dozen nano seconds long. Which can avoid many of the causes of plasma cooling. Also, since the energy is going to be extracted as direct electricity and captured x-rays… it is not so much a question of the temperature gradient.
Every fusion approach has it’s problems. With MCF, the science is proven, but the engineering may make it impractical for economic reasons. But I would not ever say the word, “impossible”. Just that Materials Science and other adjacent technology needs a lot of catching up first.
I really like how transparent Focus Fusion has been compared to the other innovative confinement concepts. Polywell has to be mostly hush because of the Navy funding though, so maybe they are making better progress than we know. But it seems like Lerner has been making great progress. The biggest challenges so far have been engineering problems. But what I like best is that they will know whether pB11 fusion using a Focus Fusion pinch is feasible within a year. If it is proven to be feasible, and they demonstrate some level of fusion using pB11… then the eyes, and pockets, of the world would be opened for them. 🙂
@Joe:
I am currently still taking lessons from my cat on the physics of fusion, and my cat is pretty rushed and so has not got time to properly tutor me.
What I am doing is simply passing on others comments.
My understanding had previously been pretty much as you outline, but naturally for guys like Cyril more in depth analysis is required.
Hopefully this one will pan out!
The way I see it is that you don’t consider the bremsstrahlung x-ray radiated as losses. There will be some other radiative losses that you can’t recover but if the onion works as well as is hoped a significant (>70%) of the x-ray energy in the 10-30keV range could be recovered.
The key issue for getting a reasonable fusion burn in the plasmoids is that the x-ray cooling is not so high as to cool the plasma faster than the fusion energy from the fast He-4 products can be redistributed in the plasma keeping it hot.
The initial tests with DD done so far have shown the radiative losses are not so high, such then the heating during the pinch can get the plasma hot enough for pB11 ignition (but at lower densities).
The next test is to repeat that temperature threshold with higher Z gases where traditionally the Z^2 dependence of the bremsstrahlung would mean the cooling will be much faster.
Todd Rider’s thesis http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/11412 and subsequent work, showed that this bremsstrahlung issue effectively rules out all other fusion fuels except D+T, D+D, and D+He-3, and furthermore for nett gain has to be at or near thermal equilibrium. This is partly why I don’t believe any of the other innovative concepts such as polywells will work. However Rider did not take account of the effect of the quantization of electron cyclotron orbits in very strong magnetic fields http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landau_quantization. This limits the transfer of energy from the fast ions to the electrons, and effectively keeps the electron temperature much lower than the ion temperature. Even so it is a tall order to reach the extreme fields needed to reduce the key collision parameter known as the Coulomb Logarithm from the standard value of 15-20 beyond even Rider’s most optimistic value of 5.
Thanks for the explanation James.
jamesr wrote:
Todd Rider’s thesis http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/11412 and subsequent work, showed that this bremsstrahlung issue effectively rules out all other fusion fuels except D+T, D+D, and D+He-3, and furthermore for nett gain has to be at or near thermal equilibrium. This is partly why I don’t believe any of the other innovative concepts such as polywells will work. However Rider did not take account of the effect of the quantization of electron cyclotron orbits in very strong magnetic fields http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landau_quantization. This limits the transfer of energy from the fast ions to the electrons, and effectively keeps the electron temperature much lower than the ion temperature. Even so it is a tall order to reach the extreme fields needed to reduce the key collision parameter known as the Coulomb Logarithm from the
standard value of 15-20 beyond even Rider’s most optimistic value of 5.
Does the Polywell concept not achieve magnetic fields in the GigaGauss range? What parameter(s) are needed in a Focus Fusion device to achieve the needed field strength?
Joe:
Hybrid Mmagnets (Combination of superconducting magnets and normal magnets) hold records of 100 T or 1E6 Gauss in a pulse mode. Pulse current drivers like the plasma focus and Z-pinch are one of the few methods to produce such strong fields in a somewhat controlled way. Other methods are explosively driven like nuclear detonations. Annually, a meeting is held on Megagauss fields which are common in the Z-pinch community using 1 MA to 24 MA drivers to report results on 1E7 and 1E8 Gauss experiments. The reproducible demonstration of Gigagauss fields had yet to be shown. The Focus Fusion concept argues they are necessary but making a measurement of these fields directly is very challenging. Diagnostics are only now becoming available to do what is needed and they require very specific axillary facilities that are likely to exceed the cost of FoFu-1. It is likely that Gigagauss fields will be inferred from another measurement before directly measured. The problem with measurement by inference is the interpretation. Someone sees a plasmoid while others see a Rayleigh-Taylor neck or so called hot spots. To achieve a Gigagauss field using a 1 MA drive pulse, you need a pinch diameter of ~2 microns. Typical observed pinch diameter are more like 5 millimeters. The problem is more complex than this simple calculation but features less than 10 microns are required to achieve such a high field unless you are using other techniques like flux compression.
Dave:
Black body losses are not that significant in a deuterium plasma because most of the electrons are unbound leading so-called free-free radiation instead of free-bound radiation. Free-bound transitions are more frequent and generally more potent because you can excite a bound electron leading to a photon emission to return to ground. It can be rapidly excited again. In the free-free mode, you need specific interactions to generate radiation. Also, deuterium plasma is optically thin. Remind your engineer friends that a black body is the most efficient emitter of radiation at a given temperature which means it takes the most power to sustain a black body at a given temperature. Gray body and white bodies (optically thin bodies) are much easier to heat to high temperature given a fixed power input. Emissivity for plasma can be quite low or large depending upon the conditions of interest. This is a complex matter is plasma physics requiring very complex diagnostics and very intricate numerical simulations.
I would add to Jamesr’s comment about brems. Brems emission is typically related to electron temperature or energy. In pinch devices, the electron temperature is naturally lower than the ion temperature. It is commonly reported in published literature since 1958. Pinch plasma is one of the few plasma types to have hotter ions than electrons. That is a huge advantage to accessing p+11B fuel. If you can further suppress the electron temperature or increase the ion temperature using strong magnetic fields, you can benefit further.
Thanks all.
One thing I like about Focus fusion is that they are upfront about the difficulties.
assymetric implosion:
Thanks. Even I can understand that.
Concerns about black body losses are limited because it ain’t a black body!
I like it!